DonExist

2007-06-07T05:49:00.001-07:00

'Rocky Balboa' is about everybody who feels they want to participate in the race of life, rather than be a bystander," Stallone said in a statement.
"You're never too old to climb a mountain, if that's your desire."

Brian Tracy - The psychology of achievement

* We become what we think about

* Everything we are now are the total result of what we thought to this period

* Everything we are and will become will be the result of the content of our minds

* The law of belief: whatever we believe becomes our reality; if we want to change our reality we must change the belief about ourselves

* Whatever we expect with confidence becomes our sef-fulfilling prophesy; we must expect the best for ourserves and the best from each situation - positive self expectancy; No fear

* We attract int our lives the people and cicumstances that harmonize with our dominant thoughts - we must change thinking - thought are like electromagnetics that radiate and attract pople and circumstances that harmonize with them

* Consentration: whatever you dwell in your conscious mind, it grows in your experience; toughts are fertilized by continuous concentration

* Substitution: Mind can hold only one word at a time: positive or negative (positive events - positive circumstances) Purposedly plants flowers so we do not get weeds. Will occupy with worries, uncertanties, etc unless we plant other things.

* A thought and feeling must be mixed

* Repetition law: we have to first learn the skill and then practice it, over and over again: achevement, forward

* Relaxation: More excert on the worse! the harder we do not try the faster our minds change... the nmore we relax and think things will come to our lives ehen we are ready for them... DUE TIME. Relax, confidently belive, concentrate.

----

Roy: Ladies and gentlemen, no suggestion, no behavior is lasting unless
you feed it. (It's that) simple. You are the sum total
of what you've wrongly experienced (and) therefore you have conflict.
Therefore the only "self' you've ever known is (the self born) out of
conflict. So, you're a glutton for punishment...a glutton for
submission...you're looking for trouble...(and) you need to be upset
(in order) to function. I get it...but do you get it? So therefore you
feel like you're going to die when you stop being upset. You may even
feel like you're going to be a doormat if you don't stand up for
yourself with anger. (But) no, (it's not true), you have to be a (calm
and patient) rock. The underpinning of your life has to be from
within...the rock is within you.

The person who builds his house on the sand ( is he who seeks) the
approval of the world...trying to get along...or (just the opposite)
doing unto others what was done to you...hurting them before they hurt
you. I get it. (But) no, (that's not the way to lasting peace and
happiness). You have to be apart from that. (You have to be) in the
world, (but) not of it. (So) how do you get there? That caller was a
perfectly good lady...she wanted to do the right thing but she brought
her baggage (into the relationship with her husband)...and she's
projecting it on to her husband...that was the last thing she
said...right Lisa? I hope she's still listening. (She's) a good woman
but she's got to be, pardon the expression, gooder (still).

2006-02-16T16:34:00.000-08:00

"Solo" wrote in message
news:2_tIf.76655$_D1.66227@trnddc03...
> How does someone come to terms with being alone?

After awhile you just get used to it. I'm 47 and have spent most
of my life alone. I am an only child, spent most of my childhood
alone, and probably got used to it at an early age. I grew up in
the military, where you constantly loose friends, and you either
learn how to keep making new ones or you stop trying as you
keep loosing them. I stopped trying as I hated loosing them.

> I no longer want to try to make people like me.

You can't make people like you, all you can do is be yourself and
hope they like you for who you are.

> The older I get, the more socially inept I become.

Your not alone, I'm the most socially inept person I know.

>At 30 years of age, I have never made a true friend,

Neither have I, although I have had alot of what I call activity
partners. People who like to do one or two things that I like
to do, but we spent no time together other then during those
times.

> never been on a date, and most women either don't want
> anything to do with me, or they are nice to me for about a
> week and then treat me like shit all over again.

I have never been on a date either. I was married once and had
a girlfriend for a few years, but I met both of those through other
people. We never really dated, we just spent time with the other
people and then started spending time together away from them.
I never actually asked either of them out on a date.

>It really hurts, and is very confusing.

Yes, it is.

> I've had it. I want to let go, but I don't know how.

I went through that for a long time and one day it dawned on me
that my married co-workers are always complaining about being
married. The wife will not let them do some things and insist that
they do other things that they don't want to do. They can't spend
their money on anything they want to as wife their won't let them.
I am not talking about guys who waste money on junk they don't
need, just guys who want to spend a little on their hobbies.

I like being able to do whatever I want and spending my money
on anything that I want to. I took up learning to play the guitar,
as a hobby, about eight months ago. I read several online guitar
forums and have seen many men complain about having to play
an old guitar because their wife refuses to let them buy a new
one, as they think it is a waste of money.

I bought seven of them, in the last eight months, just because I
liked them, can easily afford them, and I don't have to listen to
anyone gripe about it. I had enough of that when I was married,
only in those days it was computer equipment she was griping
about. My ex-wife hated me spending money on computers,
but it led to my current career as a computer technician. The
man she left me for barely makes more then minimum wage,
and she does not like that as she makes more then he does.

My ex-girlfriend hated me spending money on anything that did
not benefit her, but she was a gold-digger, and I made 90% of
the money so I did not care what she thought. She now lives in
poverty as she is convinced that a man should support her and
she refuses to learn how to support herself.

I am not saying that all women are like that as I have known men
whose wives let them spend money on anything they want as long
as the bills are paid. Women are like men, there are good ones,
and there are bad ones. Now I live alone and being alone does
have it's disadvantages, but it also has it's advantages.

> When I was was 24, it took 6-12 months before a girl would
> get sick of me. Nowadays, they seem to hate me on sight, or like me at
> first, and then HATE me as time goes on.

Not knowing you, or them, I can't say much about that. I used
to think that women hated me, but I have come to realize that I
was looking at women that I thought were the right one for me,
and not realizing that I was not the right one for them.

> Then they'll like me for a little while, and then shit all over me
> again.

In what ways are they shitting all over you?

> I'm suffering from anxiety and depression over this shit, and I
> want to put it behind me.

I know how you feel as I was depressed over it for a long time,
but I finally put it behind me. I would still like to meet a woman
who is right for me, and me for her, but I do not get depressed
about it anymore.

> I don't care if I die without a woman even touching me, I just
> want to stop pining over it.

That takes time and it won't happen overnight.

> I want to be like how I was when I was 21, when I barely paid
> attention to women to the point that it scared me.

Why would not paying attention to women scare you?

2005-04-14T06:54:00.000-07:00

Oh, I don't know. Loneliness is not an automatic feature of being single.
The loneliest I've ever been in my life was when I was in a relationship
with someone who did not understand me. And that kind of loneliness is
much harder to fix.

Oh, and being single does not mean working on Thanksgiving. This
Thanksgiving, I'm pursuing the following program:
1) go to a good bookstore, pick out some interesting stuff;
2) go to a very fancy restaurant and stuff myself while reading the
interesting stuff picked out in 1)
3) go to a movie

And yes, all of the above is done alone. Dining alone in a restaurant
might raise a few eyebrows, but it has its advantages. As does going to a
movie alone.

-----

Oh, I don't know. Loneliness is not an automatic feature of being single.
The loneliest I've ever been in my life was when I was in a relationship
with someone who did not understand me. And that kind of loneliness is
much harder to fix.

And yes, all of the above is done alone. Dining alone in a restaurant
might raise a few eyebrows, but it has its advantages. As does going to a
movie alone.

-----

> So, is single life all it is cracked up to be?

I don't know that singleness is prized, but I do find myself
appreciating my freedom more and more as I get older. When I was
younger, I had an emotional void to fill and thought I needed to get
married to be made whole. What I finally discovered is that if I could
find a minimum monthly dose of affirmation from a few female
acquaintances, then marriage suddenly seemed like a burdensome
entanglement.

> Any advice?

Look for ways to interact with men without thinking about marriage (or
analogous "Relationship"). Be creative. See if you can have your needs
met through various types of acquaintances and friendships. Once you
stop looking for the one perfect man to share your whole life, your eyes
will be opened to the many not-quite-perfect men who can each compliment
some aspect of your life.

2005-03-05T15:34:00.000-08:00

I'm sorry you're hurting :(

Try to make as many friends as you can. It will help to be around
people (positive people), and each can offer a little bit of emphatu,
hope and satisfaction. As you get better and when you're ready, one of
them may grow into a relationship, you never know.

Couple of years is a guideline, for some people it goes faster, for
others slower. Concentrate on getting to know yourself. Time will pass
no matter what you do. Make good use of it.
And when you need to, let yourself grieve.

---

Time and again, research has demonstrated the power of an individual's self-fulfilling prophecies - if you envision yourself tripping as you walk across a stage, you will be more likely to stumble and fall. New evidence suggests that previous studies have underestimated not only the effect of our own negative prophecies, but also the power of others' false beliefs in promoting negative outcomes.

----

Most people have a way of looking at things that happen in their lives through the lens of their own expectations.

They look for ways of fulfilling those expectations, often ignoring large segments of life that do not.

When A person focuses on finding the negative - has negative expectations - expects the worst - they will find ways of Seeing that which they project out there. So also when a person expects the best - thay look for that and often ignore the "bad " and instead focus on the good.

How do we get off the wheel - the continuing cycles we actually create by our expectations ?

Well there is a method, but some think it too colorless, it's called living in the Now. But you see - no expectations - no hope for a better, because there's no comparisons; no fear or anxieties for the worse either. Some would have more in their life and feel the need for hope and fear and expectations - they have never tried living in the Now and do not See how much more is then open to be Seen. Without our expectations we get to See what Is - and that is wonderful varied and more than one could ever "expect".

----

I totally agree with you Oldwolf.
I have come to a juncture in my life- that emphasizes the illusions of 'expectations'--they allways nearly dissapoint you. Instead of living in the Moment-the Now -and finding joy in the spontaneous magick that you can create through positivity and always something to hold as 'sacred...in that moment...and the next moment--ad infinitum.
Allowing relationships and people to flow and be spontaneous--fosters imagination...a joyous surprising newness...unpredictable aliveness!!
A yogi once said--No Complaints..when you look at a cloud-do you complain about it? When you look at a butterfly do you have a complaint? a blade of grass, a tree, a flower? Only human beings complain. Only human beings have expectations..I would conjecture that the rest of Nature does not.
Best not to place expectations other than a 'loving outcome-a peaceful resolve-and a creative rush--inspiration--self-realization-Compassion."
Inner contracts, of this sort, I know work...regardless of the Chaos and oppression.
Its all Good!
Peace
LionHeart

----

One thing I've learned as I've gotten older and more experienced
is that everything is complicated and nuanced and has shades
and subtleties, and the only way to deal with it is to
recognize that nothing is going to be perfect and you do the
best you can from what you know and understand.

----

With good reason, people are chary of going along too fast,
of assuming too much, of hoping beyond hope for the actual
manifestation of all their dreams and yearnings. To do
things like that invites a high-speed crash into some solid
object, perhaps, or a sudden drowning by unfamiliarity.

----

If I've learned anything (there's no evidence I have) from a
long life, it's that the surest route to great reward is
unlimited giving. It's abundantly clear that the well of
love is infinitely deep; the more you draw from it, there
more there will be to nourish you and those who find relief
or refreshment or sustenance from the result. Besides,
Fortune can toss us into the abyss at a moment's notice, so
the only sensible course, I would say, is to go for it
*all*, every single second.

2005-02-14T06:10:00.000-08:00

you are all so Kind in your responses today...I got through it well. Many
thanks to you all.

I did indeed say, Pamela, that the Y is right next door. I am looking into
volunteerism with Habitat for Humanity. That is not only a great way to give
back, and help build/repair a home for the needy..but a good way to meet
like minded people. The Y is strictly for exercize right now, it is a good
place, bright, and positive. that falls right into what I said earlier,
about helping others ease their pain, so as to help releave your pain too.

I hear what you are saying, troy...Though the breakup of an engagement is no
where near the breakup of a marriage in terms of the magnitude of the
situation, your emotions are just as real. My 21 year old son got caught up
with a very agressive girl, that ended up being screwed up on many fronts.
He did not know how to handle the emotions,,,long story, but he has risen
above it, as I am rising above my situation, and how you will rise above
yours.

I know feeling undesired by the opposite sex is indeed frustrating. But I
thing it is all in your head. That "woe is me" feeling is natural. You just
shouldn't try very hard... Love can be found in the most unusual of places.
Once you feel better about yourself, it will show onto others..confidence is
the key. The ladies need to see this from you. You could be one handsome
devil, but showing little confidence, will be a big turn off... Body
language can do this... Put the frowns away, walk with a spring in your
step...Make eye contact, smile, be kind, but not overbearing.

Find a YMCA near you, and start working out. It is good for your well being,
and your outlook on life, as well as for physical fitness. It gets the
endorphines flowing in your brain, and you'll get your energy back. In fact,
that is what lifted my spirits today, working out... and then taking a nice
drive in my "Muscle Car"..

A good nights sleep is essential. While anti-depressants are sometimes
necessary, I have found that a good nights sleep is essential. If you toss
and turn, with racing thoughts, you are never going to feel good the next
day. I use Melatonin to help me fall asleep..It works wonders. It can't hurt
to try it. You can find it at your drugstore or vitamin store.

Myself, I am still married, not sure what to do next...I do not have the
"mettle" to go file papers...I still feel responsible for her, since she has
no motivation to get a job, etc.. I am trying the tough love approach, but I
need to take care of myself first. Which is what you need to do too.

I hope I gave something back to you all. Thanks for helping out, it ended up
being a pretty good day after all.

2005-02-08T16:34:00.000-08:00

I am happy with who I am , Dave.. I have identified many of my faults, and
have made progress in repairing them.

I think it is in everyone's list of faults to procrastinate. I find that
usually is a result of a lack of motivation, particularly to doing things we
don't like. You are not alone...Of course, that can piss off a spouse big
time, putting off things you could do today, for another day.

This may sound off topic...But I find the easy fix to many of our ills, is a
good nights sleep. Get up early, have a nice breakfast, and you're
energetic. You'll find you have the most motivation after a good nights
sleep.

can't sleep? try melatonin... A dietiary supplement, Melatonin is a chemical
that originates from our brain normally provides (from the pineal gland). It
helps to regulate sleep cycles.

One of my issues has been depression.. for many of my adult years..).Seems I
was fine though until I got married and got bogged down with
responsibilities). I now realize that many of my problems stem from poor
sleep habits.

Diet and exercize is also essential......Excercize is the biggest... three
times a week, for at least 1 hour a day.

Being of sound mind and body, you can usually deal with many things that
come your way, and procrastination is less of an issue if you're of well
being, and thus motivated, and full of energy.

And lastly, find and do things you like. Do not deprive yourself of things
that light you up..I have done just that for so long...and put all my energy
into trying to save a marriage that now is doomed to failure. I have said it
before...."Take good care of yourself".

2005-02-07T17:19:00.000-08:00

Anonymous said... Hey man.. I know it's hard, but you have to lighten up.. I've been there. I'm 25 years old and 2 inches shorter than you. It sucks. It's not fair, but if you keep allowing yourself to be depressed and cynical you will only find yourself more and more distant from other people.

A few "hints" from my own experiences:

Some women only will date taller men. That is their loss. Don't be bitter. Just move on. If you have negative thoughts tell yourself (internally) to shut the fuck up.

Your thoughts and your mood are not only inside you. Others can (to some degree) see them. Nobody wants to be around someone that is miserable. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Most people want to be around others that are happy. (If you happen to meet someone that prefers being around misery, run!)

I know it's a catch-22. You can't be happy or even imagine being happy when you get really depressed, but you've got to realize just how much more attractive you'll seem to others when you are happy.

Realize that women (and men) are driven by emotions. Man is not a rational creature. Words mean nothing. A lot of women dislike men or say they are uninterested at first and then end up in relationships with them. You are never selling yourself to a person. You are selling feelings. If you make someone feel good they will want to be around you. Understanding this is worth more than a couple inches.

As a note on that, do not forget to keep some sexual feelings in the mix. Otherwise you can end up with a lot of close female friends and very few lovers.

Don't forget to smile. When you walk down the road and see an attractive woman approaching look her in the eyes. As soon as she looks at you smile and do not look away. She may not even understand why but if she is an average healthy person in a decent mood she will usually smile back at you. I wouldn't recommend having expectations from something like that, but it's something that hopefully can help improve your self esteem.

You will not meet anyone if you don't leave your apartment. You have to get yourself out into the mix. Get some hobbies, join some groups/organizations. Talk to as many people as possible. Not just women. Making friends with men helps you meet women. It's great that you don't have a problem asking people out. Don't be so hurt for rejection though. You've just got to move on.

Also, for your own good and the good of everyone around you drop the suicide thoughts. Suicide is an addiction. It's easy to get trapped into a reality, but it's best you take control and put yourself in a much more optimistic reality. Remember, your whole world can change in a day. Change can happen very quickly.

I feel for you man. I know it's hard, but you've got to realize that you are the only one who will probably change things. Never wait for anything or anyone. The older you get the faster time will move if you allow yourself to wait. You can't rely on others to help you. Stay optimistic, smile, learn to flirt, and I'm certain you'll see changes in how women react to you. Hopefully you will be surprised by just how easy it is and how quickly your current pessimistic emotions can dissolve away.

2004-12-09T17:26:00.000-08:00

But trust that there's more to clicking with people and "sharing love"
than any of that. You make perfect sense here. If you say just that -
"I want to let you know that you're not alone" - to the right person at
the right time, it might be all you and they need.

Someone from this group said that recently to me in an email, and it
meant a lot to me.

=======

2004-12-08T15:12:00.000-08:00

==================
I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing happened and
some people told me she liked me; I learned from her she had a
boyfriend.
How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
know both sides of the coin.

==================
Trent Olson wrote:
: I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
: now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
: actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
: said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing happened and
: some people told me she liked me; I learned from her she had a
: boyfriend.
: How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
: this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
: in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
: know both sides of the coin.

Why jump to getting married so sudden?

Why not find out how to meet someone who has common interests and see
where it goes from there?

Sheesh... my dad is purely happy with his mate. They are in their 70's and
see no reason to be married. They're together because they care for
each other. Same with me. Neither me nor my S.O. have any desire
to mess up a good thing.

But beyond that, simply search (I know it's not easy) for someone who simply
likes similar things you do? The rest will come naturally if it is to
happen.

b.

==================

"Trent Olson" wrote in message
news:02ecr0d57ups7fpig731eqb2measff3g7a@4ax.com...
> I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
> now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
> actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
> said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing happened and
> some people told me she liked me; I learned from her she had a
> boyfriend.
> How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
> this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
> in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
> know both sides of the coin.

Yeah, all of us were, dude - it sounds like high school.

You either forgot that devastating sense of confusion and fear that occurs
when you have to put yourself on the line emotionally, or thought that since
you grew up it would not be the same this time.

We are all 16 again when it comes to forging a new relationship. Did you
feel any differently back then trying to figure out who liked you and what
to do about it? Of course, some of us never had trouble at 16 getting
whomever we wanted and that skill likely serves them well later in life :0)

==================
"Trent Olson" wrote...
| I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
| now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
| actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
| said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing
| happened and some people told me she liked me; I learned from
| her she had a boyfriend.
| How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
| this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
| in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
| know both sides of the coin.

Its been said, and IME, dead on, that you'll find someone to be
with when you least expect it - not that you can't have hopes - but
its when you're not desperate and try to hard. It doesn't require a
hard sell. IOW, be yourself, enjoy life, and find things to do that
bring you into contact with others of like interests, and invariably,
you'll run into someone or someone find you. [R]

==================
Trent Olson wrote:

>I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
>now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
>actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
>said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing happened and
>some people told me she liked me; I learned from her she had a
>boyfriend.
>How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
>this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
>in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
>know both sides of the coin.

You are exhibiting a high DQ.

DQ stands for Desperation Quotient.

The opposite sex can tell. It turns them off.

Stop worrying about it.

Be your own person. Live your life. Be happy. If marriage comes, it
comes.

==================
Trent Olson said

> I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
> now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
> actually feels I will never will get married.

You feel anxious because you're putting way too much pressure on you
and whoever you meet. You have to stop "looking for a wife". There's
no reason to be anxious when meeting females - just relax and enjoy the
conversation.

I think you're trying way too hard to make "something happen". Most
women you meet are *not* going to be someone you'd want to marry.
They might turn out to be really good friends though, and that's a
great thing in itself.

> How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
> this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
> in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
> know both sides of the coin.

The worst thing you can do is to rush into a relationship. It takes
time to figure out how you feel about them and about yourself as well.

You know, the best thing you could do is to tell yourself you may never
end up married - you have to reach the point of being comfortable with
the idea of being single - possibly forever. It's a lot easier to meet
someone new when there's no expectations of what might happen. Just be
yourself.

Casey

==================
Trent,

Don't ever get married, that is my advice. That's not said out of
bitterness, an anti-women stance, or anything like that. Just common sense!!

Marriage has had its day, for men and women. Self-imprisonment, for no good
reason, is what it is. It does absolutely nothing to add to the quality or
meaning of a relationship. It just ties two people together with shackles
they don't need, shrouded under the mask of economic security.

--
Mark

"Trent Olson" wrote in message
news:02ecr0d57ups7fpig731eqb2measff3g7a@4ax.com...
>I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
> now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
> actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
> said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing happened and
> some people told me she liked me; I learned from her she had a
> boyfriend.
> How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
> this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
> in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
> know both sides of the coin.

==================
Do what i did.....use on-line dating. I used yahoo personals and lucked
up and i am currently seeing someone. It has its advantages ...u get to
know their background, history, interest, religion, and most of all
what they look like. I would not be solely dependent on it but treat it
as another avenue. Anything that increase odds help. Im 34 m got out of
a marriage of 5 years. The marriage i was in sucked big time "WHY"
because i settled. Now that i met someone off yahoo personals i feel
great we have a lot in common. I am attracted to her not like my first
marriage when i thought my wife was unattractive. This girl im with now
has the ideal personality just perfect for me not like my first marriage
when i was married to chatter mouth that wouldn't shut the hell up. just
don't marry for the wrong reasons i did. Now im seeing someone else we
get along great. I would at least try yahoo personals. Anything that
increase odds will definate help you out. I would try yahoo personals or
match.com.

2004-11-21T03:08:00.000-08:00

The problem is not American women, but rather women in America. This is an
important distinction. America has a cultural milieu and legal system that
strongly encourages bad female behavior. Any intelligent young woman will
likely figure this out within a couple of years of arriving. She will exist
inside a “closed” system thoroughly tolerant of divorce and populated with
obsequious men. Women are psychologically flexible. When in Rome, they do as
the Romans. The younger they are, the more likely they will conform to
American behavioral patterns.

MY EXPERIENCE
I am 36 years old. Like NiceGuy, by my mid-twenties I concluded that
American women were virtually incompatible with what I was looking for. I
found them politicized, grasping, spoiled, capricious and disloyal.

I set about trying to find a Japanese woman in 1994. I placed a personals ad
in a newsletter of sorts targeting Japanese Women interested in western men.
My first and most interesting response was not from a Japanese woman, but
rather from a Chinese Indonesian woman. She was not living in Indonesia at
the time, but rather attending college at Hawaii Pacific University (HPU) in
Honolulu. We wrote back and forth for a few months. She seemed a bit pushy
(which I didn't like) and because of some unrelated things, I lost touch
with her after the spring of 1995. In November 1995, out of the blue, she
wrote saying she would be visiting my west coast city the following month
and could I show her around? Of course, being a nice guy and also curious, I
agreed. I even took off work to pick her up at the airport.

When she arrived, she of course had her charm on full throttle. No surprise
then that we got along well and on the third or fourth night of her visit,
slept together. She returned to Hawaii for a stopover before returning to
Indonesia. She invited me to join her in Hawaii in January 1996 prior to her
leaving for Indonesia. On very short notice (a few days), I agreed. What
followed turned out to be five of the best days of my life on Oahu and Maui.
We parted company. I returned to my west coast city; she left for Indonesia
a few days later. I now had the long distance relationship I really wasn’t
prepared for. We faxed, called (can you say $400 phone bills?), e-mailed,
sent Hi8 videos, etc. That September I visited her on the island of Bali,
where she was working for Club Med. Two weeks at Club Med Bali: tough, eh?
Again, those were some of the best days of my life. I invited her to stay
with me at my townhouse in January after her contract at Club Med was over.
She spent Jan and Feb of 1997 with me. I think she was hoping I would ask
her to marry her then, but I was just unsure of my feelings. I deliberately
tried to make things as normal and unexciting as possible to see how we
could get along when not in “vacation mode.” She behaved well, but near the
end got whiny, I think because she was hoping I would propose. She left for
Indonesia and once back started pressuring me a bit to get married. She said
her family was calling her a fool for “waiting for me, etc.” Her family
pressured her to get a job because all she was doing with her time was
shopping in North Jakarta shopping malls. She landed a good job with a
European company and worked in a high rise building in downtown Jakarta. I
was conflicted, but missed her and didn’t want to lose her. I planned to
travel to Indonesia again in September 1997 and propose marriage. I did so
and of course was treated very well by her two sisters and mother (her
father had died in the late 1980s). The family seemed very solid. Two of the
three daughters had advanced degrees from Australian and American
universities. The mother managed a family-owned factory. They treated me to
many downtown expensive dinners and were very kind. We had a good time
exploring Jakarta and traveling to central Java to see Yogyakarta and the
temples at Borobudur and Prambanan.

My future wife arrived in January of 1998 and we started making plans for a
simple wedding because of the time constraints of the fiancée visa. All of a
sudden I learn that first one, and then another sister have become engaged.
My fiancée was the youngest daughter and this seems to have put pressure on
the other two sisters. The middle sister was to marry a coworker of hers at
Bank of Central Asia (from a lower status family) and the oldest sister was,
believe it or not, to marry a postal worker from Missouri whom she had met
just once before. This guy had no college education whereas the sister had
6-7 years of college. How was I to know that this sister would help
precipitate my divorce 4 years later?

The year is now 2001. Of course, the oldest sister is not getting along with
her well- meaning but mediocre husband. They have virtually nothing in
common and have a 20 year age difference. She gets him to pay for her to go
to massage school. Why not use her MBA to get a serious job? Could it be
that a serious job requires regular hours, which are quite inconvenient? One
of her first customers turns out to be a divorce attorney who gave her legal
advice in exchange for more massages. She could dump her husband, get a lot
of money and stay in the country—after only three years. Her
discontentedness spread into my wife’s life and fed on her discontentedness.
The two would spend an hour or two each day on the phone talking to each
other. My wife was preparing to quit her part time job and unknown to me at
the time—made a pact with her sister to do a double divorce. Sister
reportedly told my wife that she “could do better than me.” Now, we lived in
a 300K, 3,000 sq ft house in the suburbs and I grossed 130K last year. But,
you see, she could do better! I worked too much and was unwilling to devote
all of my free time pandering to her ever-changing whims partly because I
had to do so many chores and errands that she was unwilling/unable to do,
even though she didn’t work and had tons of free time.

To make a long story short, she planned in Sept 2001 to divorce me but I
didn’t have a clue anything was up until August of 2002. It turns out she
was having an affair with an overpaid dot-com employee from another west
coast city, whom she had met on the internet (Yahoo! personals, I think).
She would meet him in downtown (while claiming to be shopping) on weekends
when he would fly in from his city. Before finding this out, I paid for her
trip back to visit her family in Indonesia in Sept/Oct. 2002. She secretly
met this man in Singapore for a week during this visit. I couldn’t travel
with her because I had to work. (She told her family I was insensitive and
unwilling to travel with her). The purpose of her trip was also to soften
her mother up to the idea of divorce. I know her mother would not have
condoned her behavior, had she been made aware of it.

I knew something was up in August 2002. We argued constantly about trivial
matters. I couldn’t do anything right. She wanted to go to a marriage
counselor, etc. Her behavior changed drastically for no apparent reason and
with no change in my behavior. She started taking anti-anxiety medicine and
having difficulty sleeping. In hindsight it is clear that she had a guilty
conscience relating to her affair and upcoming rendezvous in Singapore.

I installed a key stroke logging device on her computer. Immediately after
returning from Asia, she asked for a divorce. When I captured her e-mail
password, a whole world opened up to me about her yearlong deception. In
that year, she had quit her job, extracted as much money from me as
possible, lost a lot of weight (from 125+ pounds to 110 pounds) by working
out obsessively at a gym, started dressing sexier (I must have forked over
one thousand bucks for Victoria’s Secret clothing), colored her hair,
obsessed over her nails and eyebrows and began earnestly looking for my
replacement. I can pinpoint the exact time she found this guy on the
internet, because he had a website that had pictures of his Porsche project
car. She called me into her office (we both had our own home offices) at the
time and asked me if “that [Porsche] was an expensive car?” I didn’t know
where this was coming from at the time. I thought she was just randomly
surfing.

That year of planning allowed her to change her physical appearance, make
herself appear more financially vulnerable by quitting her job (ensuring
entitlement to spousal maintenance) and increased the length of marriage by
one-third. Within no time she became an expert in our state’s divorce laws.
She used free consultations from local lawyers, downloaded divorce forms
from the internet, photocopied my financial records and pay stubs and hid
her money and collection of gold and jade jewelry. She tried to provoke me
into violence so that she could get me kicked out of “our” house (I paid
every single payment and over 75% of the down payment). I refused to
threaten her and I was not kicked out of the house. She knew not to lie
about that one to the police. In an ambiguous way, I let her know that
beyond a certain point, there would be no rules to limit my behavior. The
only thing that saved me from complete agony and probable bankruptcy was
having her e-mail password and using it to determine what she was doing (she
denied having an affair with the best poker face imaginable until I
literally rubbed one of her vacation photos with boyfriend under her nose.
That was the very first lie I had ever caught her in!). I also had a spare
key to a lockable safe she stored her important papers in. I photocopied the
notes she took when speaking to lawyers, numbers for new bank accounts she
established, etc. Without this intelligence advantage, I wouldn’t have been
able to make the correct decisions at key times. Being sneaky and devious
kept me from being crushed. I knew reconciliation was not an option based on
her careful planning so I didn’t even attempt it. My only regret is not
having started to snoop months earlier. I won’t make this mistake again. But
then I probably won’t ever get married again and place myself in such a
vulnerable situation.

She filed for divorce and I joined in the petition. We had paralegals do it
and probably saved a minimum of 10K in legal bills in the process. I kept
the house and my retirement, but I am at least 60K in debt right now. I had
to borrow against my retirement. A four year marriage to a woman who started
to show interest in straying (in hindsight) after about two years cost me
close to 100K when all costs are considered. It could have been 150K, except
her limited knowledge of our finances saved me. Also, I had accumulated cash
she did not know about. I had protected myself much better than most
American men, but even I was shocked at how biased the system is. Its very
structure and procedures are tailored to the interests of women. She was
able to quit her job, use the free time to get herself in shape and use the
lack of employment as justification for demanding spousal maintenance. She
was able to spend all day at home talking to lawyers while I had to be at
work, supporting her lazy ass.

In hindsight, there were a few small things that should have tipped me off
to a potential for infidelity. But they were small clues. There were no
clues to indicate that she was capable of one year of careful planning to
dump me all the while saying that she loved me and regularly having sex with
me. In fact, under any other circumstance, she would have been incapable of
coming up a complex plan to accomplish much of anything.

The bottom line is this: Women are women regardless of their ethno-cultural
background. Their fundamental psychology is uniform throughout the world.
They are extraordinarily adept at surveying the surrounding legal and
cultural landscape and figuring out just how much they can get away with.
Because the American legal and cultural regime is the most permissive in the
world (some N. European countries come close), women in America behave the
worst. I know that Asian women behave better in Asia, but this is a
reflection mostly of their cultural norms and laws, probably not their
genetic or psychological makeup. The younger a woman is, the more likely she
will absorb the American female-centered ethos. Over age 45, it’s probably
safe. Between 30 and 45, it’s risky. Under 30 and a man is rolling the dice
in bringing a women here. Women have an absolutely incredible capacity to
reinvent themselves. They’ll move to a different city, lose weight, get a
makeover and damn near become a new person. Men will believe any lame story
they relay because they trust women. Men trust women because they do not
constitute a short-term physical threat. I am now convinced that women are
far more devious than men when the truly big stakes are involved. Our male
egos usually prohibit public dissemination of stories like mine (and NiceGuy
’s—hence our pseudonyms) and this gives women a lot of cover. They can pull
a lot of shit and play like they are pure as the driven snow and
victims—when in fact they are more often the opposite—i.e., capricious
whores.

As for Asian women brought to America, it isn’t just the woman’s friends who
will pick away at her (“oh, you shouldn’t let your husband get away with
that, blah, blah, blah”). Her coworkers will tell her how their
relationships work. She can watch the Ricki Lake show and Judge Judy. My
ex-wife’s sister learned a lot about the American legal system through
watching Judge Judy, believe it or not. Foreign women can also read Cosmo
and Glamour to figure out the system. They can buy relationship books at
bookstores. They can selectively report information about her relationships
to their families and friends in order to soften them up for any future
decisions. Acceptance of female abuse of men through relationship is
omnipresent in America unless you intend to live as a hermit on a
mountaintop somewhere. Women are extremely savvy in picking this stuff up.
The farther up the socio-economic scale, the worse it gets. Smarter women
are capable of more obtuse logic in justifying their own self-deception.
They simply rationalize yet more outrageous behavior.

PICK UP SITES:
I found this site through NiceGuy’s site: http://www.fastseduction.com/
I think these guys have really hit upon core female psychology. I know
NiceGuy dismisses this stuff because he is more interested in having a
relationship with a woman than “scoring” but I think this understanding of
female psychology is necessary for both objectives. The problem is, in order
to keep a woman you have to keep her on her toes and a bit off guard. The
way our modern economies are structured, women typically have much more
leisure time than men. This means that it is very difficult to have the time
and energy necessary to keep a women off guard and from becoming bored.
Merely supporting her is not enough. She assumes support, takes it for
granted and builds her expectations from there.

THIRTYSOMETHING WOMEN:
When I first divorced, I checked out the online dating scene that “Hambone”
so well documents. There are a lot of attractive women in their early
thirties on sites like Match.com, Yahoo!, etc. I was optimistic that given
my education, job, income, house, car and a decent personality and
communication skills, I should have no trouble finding a woman. In theory, I
should be a “catch” as I keep reading magazine and newspaper articles about
how all the good men “are taken,” especially for the more educated women. As
it turns out, these women are unbelievably nasty. Most won’t even respond to
a message. I’ve tried many approaches: humor, nice, playful, intellectual,
clever, spiritual, you name it. You can spend an hour composing a really
nice message and they will just blow you off like you don’t exist. You try
to instant message them and most do not even accept the message. The few who
do agree to chat will simply end the conversation when they find something
in your profile they don’t like or you write something trivial they don’t
like. They are desperate, nasty women.

GO OVERSEAS YOUNG MAN
If I could live in Asia or Eastern Europe, I think I would. Unfortunately,
my foreign language skills are poor and my work skills are not easily
transferable overseas. I really don’t know what I will do. Obviously, I
enjoy female companionship, but the cost-to-benefit ratio that looked
questionable in my twenties now looks just awful. I wanted to live a normal,
married life, have a couple of kids, live happily ever after. Maybe retire
to a golf course community or Hawaii. With my education and income, I should
have it made—but nothing could be farther from the truth. I have to
literally “scrounge” for a date. I am a socially conservative, honest,
honorable guy who has had my chances for a normal life totally destroyed by
the gender wars, warped American laws and female avarice. I have no children
and it increasingly looks like I will not have any.

MY BROTHER
Like a number of men on this forum, my brother became so disillusioned with
American women (he calls them hyenas) that he has gone to Russia and is
engaged to marry a beautiful Russian doctor. With no background in Slavic
languages, he taught himself Russian for this purpose. This woman’s a 10 for
sure. But it’s a role of the dice for him and I have tried to explain this
to him. If a woman is ambitious enough to leave her family and friends to
move half way around the world for a better standard of living, then she’s
ambitious enough to move across an American suburb for a man who can provide
an even higher standard of living. This is the core problem with importing
women from poor counties (although I thought that I was protected from this
because my ex-wife came from a wealthy family). In addition, foreign women,
no matter how well educated, will have at least some problems integrating
into American life and this will cause additional problems. Finally, subtle
cultural clues that might alert an American man to a potential problem with
an American woman will fly below his radar with a foreign woman in many
cases. In some cases, however, character and quality will be obvious.
NiceGuy’s story about Jianglin in Taiwan is such a case.

I am honestly starting to understand the Islamic world’s treatment of their
women. If not “kept back,” I’m beginning to believe that women will behave
in such a way so as to collectively destroy society, given 4 or 5
generations. How could anything else result, when the message is
unmistakable to the most responsible men: Have children at your peril. Guys
who think like us are the foundation of a stable society. We raise better
children and keep the economy going. We obey laws and pay our taxes and
stabilize society. The fewer children we have, the more unraveled the social
fabric will become. Beyond a certain point, a complex society will collapse
from too much overhead and too few producers.

Mr_X
West Coast, North America
December 17, 2003

http://forum.dearingfilm.com//index.php?showtopic=765&hl=computer

2004-05-25T18:00:00.000-07:00

The point being, we are not always totally in tune with what is going on
with our kids. We can never know the extent of the feelings inside any
person unless they tell us, and even if they tell us, they may not always
express the depth of it all, or we may not be hearing it as they feel it.
Especially kids.

2004-04-19T14:20:00.000-07:00

One step at a time, used2be, just take it one step at a time. Crying is
supposed to be good for healing. I hope it resolves itself soon for you.

--
Regards Lee

~~
No one is compelled to serve great causes,
unless he feels fit for it.
Sir Winston Churchill

====

Let me make some suggestions on dealing with depression.

1) recognize that it makes sense to be productive and efficient, recognize that
constantly pondering over failures and problems is not efficient. Give
yourself a pass and excuse, forgive yourself. Then start working on short and
long-term goals which you should write down.

2) Get out, do things, go places. Recognize that simply sitting home and
watching tv willmake you more depressed.

====

> How do you forget someone? there's still certain hope inside me but to
> keep her as a friend would be a torture and a risk, so I'm about to
> cut any contact with her but I fear I could lose any chance. How do
> you know what to do? and how do you forget that person?

when you realise that you never needed nor wanted her in the first
place...when you realise that you were infatuated with the idea of her
and not actually who she was...when you realise that it was because
she could see right through you that you felt she was special when in
actuality if you learned to trust other people again that you can have
that with someone better suited for you...when you realise that its
really the memory of her that you loved the most because youre trapped
in the past...when you start liking yourself instead of letting her
define who you are...when you stop thinking about the whatifs and know
that it was just one of those things not meant to be...

2004-04-18T15:40:00.000-07:00

Good for you... just keep in mind.... these are just 'things'.... and things
can be replaced.... don't just roll over and play dead.... but knowing when
to fight for something.... and when to just let it go... is about 90% of the
battle....

====

http://www.nomarriage.com

Why men should not marry.

All the older guys I know, guys that are 55 and older are telling me the
same story; don't do it. It just turns to crap no matter what you do.
They'd rather be independent. At best it's a tedious bore. At worst a
living hell with financial ruin thrown in for good measure. The problem
is that when you're young, you just naturally fall into this mind set
where your whole self image is based on how women regard you, and so you
spend all your money and energy trying to make yourself acceptable to
them. Then later in life the shine wears off and you finally realize
that you've wasted yourself on a bunch of crap.

Children - "the ultimate human experience"
I couldn't even begin to list all of the older folks i know from work or
through my family with kids they either don't get along with, are
disappointed in, or are so distant as to not even be a factor in each
other's lives.

I'm really skeptical about the idea of children as "the ultimate
blessing." How many friends do you have with little or no meaningful
contact or relationships with their parents?

I would wager the statistic for happy child/parent relations would be as
bad, if not worse, than the marriage numbers. Who wants to deal with TWO
bitter, unfulfilling relationships?!

Marriage is a sham for men. There is no benefit. If you are about to get
married, think it over. Don't let your dick do your thinking for you.
Don't let your punch-drunk I'm in love euphoria put you on auto-pilot.
You will wake up in a hell of a hangover staring at this woman who will
control your life.

A few years ago I went through a major depression over this until I
started talking to all the older guys I knew...and they all said the
same thing; "don't do it, it's shit. Even when it's not bad, it's shit".
You end up being closely tied to an old woman. Think about that. I can
go to Europe or the south seas tomorrow. If I was married I wouldn't
have the money and I'd have to ask HER permission. Don't get married
unless you are absolutely religiously in love with her. Like carry her
sick aged body to the toilet and wipe her ass and be happy to do it kind
of love.

What I'm saying is that human beings are nasty weak treacherous
creatures that are for the most part totally untrustworthy. Experience
is my basis for this statement, both mine and others who I know or who
have written reliable histories. If you can find a woman to be your
companion who is not treacherous, a deceitful little actress, a sly
whore or a manipulative nag or a shrieking hag, then you are among the
lucky few. Congratulations. I hope your luck continues to hold out.

Ok, assume that you will end up divorced and won't see your kids and
lose half of your assets, how different is that from being married?

Most married guys I know are working their asses off to pay bills,
rarely to get to spend time with their families, mediocre or no sex
life, and have wives that spend as much of their money as absolutely
possible.

My problem with marriage isn't a fear of divorce; it is that the whole
thing sucks divorce or not.

What security is there for men in marriage?
If I cheat on my wife, she gets half my shit.
If she cheats on me, she still gets half my shit.
Why the fuck should i get married?

Fuck it man, it's easy to get depressed about not being married when we
live in a society that constantly feeds us the image of the happy
couple. It's one big lie. The happiest person alive is someone who isn't
a prisoner dependent on another human being... We only have 80 or so
years on this rock to achieve true freedom

Very few marriages last nowadays, and even guys older than me are
telling me not to even think about it... It's a grossly overrated source
of happiness. And for the 80% that do go through divorce, it will
financially ruin you for life. Period. You can take your best 10 earning
years from say, 35 to 45 and take all the wealth you would have
accumulated and flush it down the toilet. Because it will go to her and
her lawyer. If it happens naturally and it's good then great, good luck.
But the worst thing is to force it, to make gross exertions and ignore
all sorts of red lights going off just to be hooked up and "normal". Get
some hobbies. Relax. Hang out. Enjoy. Take life as it comes.

As men, we all know that a woman's primary objective is to marry. After
years of experience I've discovered their most commonly used strategy.
here it is:

1. Girl pressures guy for marriage.

2. Guy delays.

3. Girl gradually starts destroying guy's self-esteem and eliminating
his friends.

4. Guy becomes too weak and too much of a loser to find something better
than what he has.

5. Girl starts to limit sex. In effect controlling the only good thing
in the guy's life.

6. Guy is in despair. Capitulates to marriage.

Then 5-10 years later the guy is an empty shell of his former self. Girl
is a ruthless manipulating machine. Girl divorces loser husband. Girl
takes 80% of guy's stuff because the guy is too brain dead to find a
good lawyer. Girl lives happily ever after. Guy becomes bald alcoholic
who dies of heart attack at 45 years old.

====

Everyone has been hurt, and some people just shut down for the rest of their
lives. It takes enormous courage to love again following great pain.

Sometimes, it's hard to recognize the good things that are right in front of
our faces because we're too busy looking over our shoulders.

Whether or not you believe in fate, things come into our life for a reason.

====

> I feel strongly the need for female companionship and yet
> harbor a bitterness toward an inaccurate conception of womanhood I've
> had brewing since high school.

Almost anyone can sense something different in an individual in their
presence. Maybe they haven't had enough time to figure out exactly what
it is, but they know something is different.

bad feelings towards women, homosexuals, minorities, can be felt and
exhibited by you in ways you may not realize. You should think very,
very hard what it is that bothers you about women -- because all the
women I know of all ages are looking for a nice guy.

> It doesn't help that I am naturally introverted

A women of 55 (she was a wild one) just met the nicest guy (introverted)
you could ever meet. He is only a mechanic. She is brilliant. He
keeps her car and her all tuned up. Now both of them are humming the
same tune. (LOL) but he is 5 or 10 years her junior. He is bald.
A very nice couple. You see, it is never being introverted, or ugly - I
will deal with that in a moment - it is a desire and a struggle and hard
work to find the right person, but that is only if you want.

On the issue of ugliness. I have average looks. Thankfully I have
improved with age. I had a long face and a long nose but that face
filled out over these many years and that helped. I have seen ugly and
normal people and beautiful people. Looks are only skin deep. Remember
looks are a depreciating asset. That means that everyone loses their
looks so enjoy them for the moment but charm and charisma last for
ever!

Nothing you have written here would lead me or probably anyone else to
believe you couldn't fine a very nice woman and be very happy - except
one - your possible contempt for women since high school.

When you live with someone (housemate) or are in a relationship with
someone and it ends, you only really learn about yourself. The other
person will always remain a mystery to some extent.

Important to anyone looking for a partner is who are they, what do they
want and why?

You are a guy with what interests, skills, intelligence, etc.

You want to meet a women who cares for you, likes you for who you are
and wants to possibly (first step) have a relationship with you and get
to know your good points and learn to deal with your faults. You
likewise.

Why? Well, the reason why is because you believe, unlike myself, that
a partner, spouse, woman, is the answer to your happiness or will
signficiantly contribute to your happiness and wellbeing.

I on the otherhand believe that no one on the planet except myself can
make myself happy. I can enjoy the company of others, but I don't have
to or want to live with them to do it. I can enjoy their finest hour,
and do enjoy their finest hour, but not (24/7/365 X 40 - 60 years).

But there is one significant difference between you and me. I have
life's experience times 55 years and you, I suspect, are under 35.

You need to learn to walk. Most of the people I know in a similar
situation to you have joined a social sports group. No, you don't need
to be a jock. But a social sports group does one thing that almost no
other group can do. It focus on the bigger picture, having fun and
being ones self and allows you to come out of your introverted self for
just a split second, then 2 seconds and pretty soon you are relaxed and
more extroverted because it is safe to do so. The other advantage is
that most of the people in these groups are like yourself in that they
are finding it difficut to meet somoene.

Needless to say I am slightly extroverted. I can't hellp it, but I like
introverted people because they are bright, interesting and unlike most
people, you have to crack their shell to find the good qualities. They
are, I suppose, the oyster of the human race.

Be patient. Caution: Whether it be a computer, girlfriend or car, they
joys of having one, having a new one, having a different one wears off,
is not what it is thought, dreamed, imagined to be. Don't set your
excpections high because you will, like all other aspects of life be
dissapointed. Enjoy the moment.

and moreover ugly. Anyway, I guess everyone has to manage
> it in his own way. In my case, I manage it by rejecting both humanity
> and myself as being beyond the need or chance for love and friendship.
> Anyway...

=====

<(((*> i'll never win a popularity contest. life is a popularity contest, so i'll
><(((*> never be a winner in life.

As long as you model life as a popularity contest, as long as you
model yourself as a loser at popularity contests, then you're
absolutely correct,

The trick that worked for me was to create a different model of
life, and to model myself as the kind of person who can be
successful in that model. And then to work like hell at it.

Wombn used to quote Winston Churchill in her sig file, something
about "Never give up. Never, ever give up." Good person to model
yourself upon, old Winnie.

You would probably enjoy reading his biography. Not just the WWII
part of it. You have to see the whole course of his life to
understand just how many times he needed to remake himself in
order to achieve his next success.

Very inspiring man.

=====

Move to another city..? .. Nah... not a very practical option...
The problem is... you built up some expectations in your head... and when
those expectations didn't become reality... it's knocked you for a loop. You
probably thought... 'hey, I'm a great guy.... she should find me to be a
great catch' ... But, that is usually not the case. I suggest you try and
think about someone you have absolutely no romantic interest in.... Now,
once you have that person in mind, then believe that they are deeply in love
with you... Once you have a very clear picture about how the other side
perceives the situation... I think you'll see how you can move on...

If that doesn't seem to do the trick.... then just say to yourself that she
doesn't realize what she's missing.... and then go look for someone who
would consider your love and attention as a gift.

"Thomas Anderson" wrote in message
news:80455e19.0403190647.4329455c@posting.google.com...
> i was in love with a wonderful girl, i talked
> to her & told her about my love for her
> she said that she want me to be only a friend
> i know that i must respect that, but it is very hard
> i don't know how to be just her friend while i'm still
> love her.
> how do i deal with this, i tried to be away from her & but
> it is a bit hard, we work in the same company & we see each
> other everyday
> what should i do

=====

>
> I would simply tell her that your feelings for her of such a deep and profound
> nature that you cannot be merely "her friend" and avoid further contact with
> her, while always being polite. I surmise that you are young. Go and live and
> find another love.
>
> Cat

Good advice but I would leave out the "deep and profound" part. Just
tell her that being "just" friends with her would mean you would have to
pretend that you do not have feelings for her.

Be civil and polite to her afterwards and try not to hope that she will
change her mind. She most probably won't, so try any move on as soon as
possible.

Last bit of advice: try not to get romantically involved with people you
work with. It always gets complicated regardless of whether or not
things work out.

Good luck.

=====

Don't be her friend. Women just keep male friends around to impress other
women with how many men they have to choose from. The best revenge is to refuse
to be friends with her at all...now that will make her annoyed and possibly
even more into you sexually.

=====

been there done that... and it doesnt work
trying to be "just friends" with someone u have deep feelings for and want,,
isnt an option.

u end up hurting more and more...

what can u do?

stay away from her.. let her live her own life.. and u have to get over her
and move on

and if that means changing jobs.. so be it.

good luck

=====

>It's easy to change "just friends" into much, much more.

Yes it is, by refusing to be friends with women at all. "Friends" bullshit
just gives women an unlimited number of men to place within her power orbit.
She uses these men like pawns to threaten her current boyfriend. It's EGO,
women collect male friends for ego and control. Also, she has 10 male friends
to prove to other women how much she is desired by men.....

Take a stand! NO FRIENDS!!!

=====

Well, I have very strong opinions about this. First of all, the women and men
being "friends" thing is mostly bullshit. The guy is just too cowardly to
directly flirt with the girl so he conceals it behind this "friend" mask and
waits for the day for her to fall madly in love with him. Of course the real
stupidity of this is that if she truly thought he was good-looking, she would
have FORCED the situation into a romantic relationship immediately. Women don't
tolerate hot male "friends" unless they already have a good-looking boyfriend
or husband and usually the women use these male "friends" for reasons that you
young guys probably don't want to deal with..

Basically, and I've seen this NUMEROUS times...a woman collects male
"friends" for the purpose of putting the THREAT of another man in her life
right into the boyfriend's face. The male "friends" are her symbolic pawns to
notify the boyfriend, "If you don't treat me good, look at all of the other men
lined up who want me!!!"

Next, the other reason that a woman has a lot of male "friends" is to show
off to the other women how desired she is..."Look at all these men who want
me!!! I'm much sexier than you!!!"

I'm serious, women are sly and tactical, they don't have any person in their
life by accident, it's all a well evolved strategy.

I remember when my sister was having problems in her marriage, suddenly a
male "friend" appeared out of nowhere and she got emotionally close to him but
as soon as her husband started serving her again, BINGO, the friend
disappeared...she had no more use for him. He existed in her life only to pose
a threat to her husband and if the husband was giving her everything she
wanted, the "friend" was no longer necessary..

Want another example? A girl is mad at her boyfriend so she sleeps with a
male "friend" to get back at him.... In other words, these "friends" are kept
around to always have SOMEONE to use for your next potential DRAMA. It's much
easier and considered "classier" for a girl to sleep with a male "friend" than
some stranger at a bar, the male "friend" who of course she knows has wanted
her sexually for 5 years..women are not stupid, they know damn well that men
only become "friends" with them because they are pretty and that he's holding
out hope for sex one day......the male "friend" is finally given the sex he's
been waiting for...of course he was just a pawn used to hurt the
boyfriend......

See what I'm getting at here?? This is why when women aren't sexually
interested in a man they tell him, "Let's just be friends" because they know
that someday that guy will serve her somehow as a potential threat to her
current boyfriend, etc....this is why if a woman tells you, "Let's just be
friends" and you say, "No thanks", this is the worst punishment you can dish
out to a female!!! To not allow her to use you within her power orbit is the
ultimate FUCK OFF! Because most women love to collect a pile of these males to
USE for power plays and other silly immature antics...

The other thing that the young people do and this is the 16-22 age group is
this "Oh we are just friends" but then they intentionally place themselves in
party situations with alcohol and drugs and suddenly they are having sex with
this "friend"...they aren't fooling anyone....no one gets in those situations
unless they want to lose control but women like to blame other elements for
their uninhibited behavior to avoid taking responsibility for their actions..

"Oh I didn't mean to be alone in that football player's hotel room at 1 A.M.
in the morning, it was an accident and I was only going to have one drink."
yeah, yeah, yeah, lady, you wanted to make yourself vulnerable and you wanted
something dangerous to happen and then after the sex you woke up the next
morning feeling cheap and used and you charged him with rape........it's this
kind of game-playing that undermines REAL RAPE.

My father told me a story about a girl lecturing him about "using women" 5
minutes after she had just had sex with him. He says that it was like she had
turned into a psychopath right after the sex was over....she had changed into
this completely different person.

=====

2004-03-30T03:01:00.000-08:00

Here's your advice, though it may not be what you were expecting. Stop
trying to forget him and stop trying to not be in love with him. If
someone has had that strong of an effect on your life, you're not going
to just forget them.
As for your feelings, are you truly happy with Brad? I don't see your
feelings for this person ever going completely away, but it could be
that they are more prominent for you now because of something missing in
your current relationship.

In any case, IME, you will be able to deal with your feelings much more
easily if you accept them as part of your life. If you are constantly
fighting them, that can only make it worse. It would also help to keep
reminding yourself of your feelings that he was not right for you.

Hi, i know that it is hard to forget about someone that you really loved
but i will tell you this, you will never forget about that person. In
time you will look back at your relationship and be able to pick out the
things that you learned and that have made you a better person and the
things that didn't work out too well and know that that is something to
avoid doing in the future. Keep yourself busy doing things that you
like to do, like a hpbby or a sport. Hang in there. You may hurt right
now, but enjoy life being by yourself. Someone once told me that you
can't be happy in a relationship untill you are happy by yourself.
Hopefully this will help you a little. Hang in there. You sound like a
really nice guy, and I am positive you will make it!

=====

To tell you the truth, you never really forget someone you really loved,
they will always be a pleasant memory. As for the pain, it does go away,
with time.

Try to keep yourself busy, either with work or with friends. This will
help you from dwelling on the pain, and it will give you something else
to think about for a while. The pain will still be there, but it won't
be the only thing you think of, and it will dissapate with time.

As for trying to be strong because you are a man, well a good cry never
hurt anybody, and it sure helps deal with the pain. I've had a few "feel
sorry for myself" days in my time, and it does help put things into
perspective.

I feel for you. Just take it one day at a time.

=====

The best way to forget someone you like is to
concentrate on your duty such as work, study, house
keeping, etc.
The worst thing is doing nothing but just looking at
the person's picture, mails, etc.
Throw those thing away or never look at them.

You may often remember the person while you work, but
let it as it is. It is impossible not to think about
the person by your intention.

You can remember the person, but try to concentrate on
work.

You will have some achievement and gain confidence in
yourself. And you may realize that the person is no
more important to you...

=====

I have a different perspective on this one.

Assuming one likes someone - a lot. There must be a reason as to why one
wants to, or needs to, forget that person. Once the reason has been
identified, it should be possible to move along that line of thought and
unearth a reason to NOT like the person. Of course, insurmountable
geographic distances could be a reason - but the fact that the person did
not accompany one should be (acc. to me) sufficient reason to question the
person's commitment to one. I can come up with similar reasons (mostly
appearing to be manufactured - but all following the same pattern - find
some thing(s) that one does not like about the person and amplify on it.

Once one is convinced that the there ARE reasons to not like the person, it
should be just a matter of time before one forgets about the person.

Please note that time is the master healer. ANYTHING and EVERYTHING is
healed by time .. one way or another.

=====

The best way to forget "someone u like" is to start
thinking and liking "someone else". This is the best
method as now u will be inclined to think of the new
person.
We find difficult to forget someone because we because
we went to forget him or her. The more one try not to
remember someone the more he remembers. It has been
often said that when we went to remember something
perfectly we must try to forget that and see that u
will never forget that incident.
Same thing is iver here . thus we should make efforts
to distract our attentuion from that . that is only
possible when wwe find something better or equal to
earlier one..

=====

Hello,
You are right no body ever forgets who one likes...it is just that one just
tries not to remember them often.
i.e: keep them in the back of the memory so that they clash less often with
the current ones.

=====

> Continuing the discussion on Pulkit's topic,
> I would love to know as to how one can forget a person
> one likes. I would appreciate any answer other than
> "to like someone else!"
>

read "man's search for meaning, an introduction to logotherapy" the
autobiography of viktor e frankl.

he was a doctor of psychiatry in germany, and was sent to cocentration
camps along with his family members where all perished except himself.
among all the physical hardships and mental degradation, he discovered
what he called "the last freedom of human beings" that his torturers
can't take away. that is, your reaction to what is being done to you by
others. you have the freedom to choose not to feel humiliated, insulted
by what is being done to your body, freedom to choose your own reaction
to the stimulus.

man is different from animals in the aspects that animals are
genetically programmed to eat to survive and to have sex to create
offsprings.

whereas man has been given the gifts of
1. self-awareness: to isolate himself from his bodily experiences and
become aware of the situation as it is.
2. discretion: to assess whether what is happening is good or bad.
3. imagination: to find other ways in which things could be done, to
remove the bad part and to enhance the good part of the situation.
4. willpower: to implement what he has decided, in spite of hardships.

this gave rise to the concept of proactivity, in which we have the
freedom to choose our response to stimulus, using these four gifts,
instead of just reacting to the stimulus.

in logotherapy, we attribute a higher message in the situation that
takes the pain away and provides motives for a new beginning.

an incident similar to the situation you asked for, will clarify.

a person was almost mad with psychological pain about the recent death
of his wife whom he loved very very much.

dr frankl asked him, do you love you wife very much so as to, given the
option, you would have died in her place.

the man immediately said yes.

dr frankl asked him, did your wife loved you much that she would have
choosen to die in your place, if the situation had been like that.

the man thought for a moment and said, yes.

dr frankl suggested that if that man has died in the place of her wife,
he would have left her wife living the same life of agony that he
himself has been facing. he further said that by dying, the wife had
fulfilled her desire of dying in place of her husband, had the situation
been so, and thus he has to live to respect the wish of her wife and to
live it in a happy manner, the way his wife would have wanted him to
live after she is gone.

it was not to be his life style, it was to be the projection of his life
style thru the eyes of his late wife.

the man understood it and chose a vocation in which he could further the
likings and beliefs of his wife. the agony was gone.

it is cryptic, but that is the way philosophies are. it is also known as
a paradigm shift.

any discussion or more queries about the concept are welcome.

======

mickey wrote:

> franco@grex wrote:
>

> > Did anyone get any advice on usenet (this group or others) that really changed
> > (improved) their life? I don't mean just some words of support and comfort
> > (though those are quite important in a support group) but what I mean is an
> > advice in the form of someone imparting some new knowledge that you have been
> > unmindful to thus far. If I had to recall the most important one I got was not
> > on this ng, but on an anxiety group where I learned about scientifically proven
> > anxiolytic and anti-depressive effects of aerobic exercise.
> >

>
> Yes. The primary and most useful advise I got from here was to put a
> higher value on people's behaviour over their words. If I could think
> of one of the most useful post it would be an Eric Pepke one which you
> can google with "author:pepke everything you know is wrong".
>
> -M

Book Quote:

Speedy was back on Cloud Nine again. "I have always loved intelligence, I would
hate to see someone as bright as you burn himself out by trying to do too much, too
fast. You have the potential to possibly exceed my accomplishments if you learn how
to keep yourself from overloading." Speedy had already passed the stratosphere by
now. "I can only offer you the advice of a tired old man who's seen too much and
knows far more than he should. It's up to you to decide if you want to take it. You
don't have to agree with me; it's your life and you are free to live it any way you
choose. Think about what I said and sleep on it overnight."
Speedy said he would. "I'd like to also give you one more piece of advice, if I
may." Speedy nodded. "Do not trust those who demand you ignore what you think to be
right. You must learn to use your fabulous mind and learn to think for yourself.
Don't always believe what you read or what your teachers or your textbooks tell you.
Sometimes they are wrong or have intentional biases or outright lies."
I was shocked to hear a well known educator and writer say such a thing. I knew
this but I know most educators won't admit it. I was starting to be amazed by the
great mind of this man; I had to admit to myself that maybe I had misjudged Dr.
Sign. "Learn to look for the reason why people do things. Do not judge people by
what they say, write or claim. Judge them by their actions; does what they say or
write agree with what they are doing? If not, attempt to discover the reason...."

- George Green quoting Dr Hugo Sign in Paul Robinson's "In The Matter of: The
Gatekeeper: The Gate Contracts"

=====

1) Men use romance to get sex.
2) Women use sex to get romance.
3) Men who are too supplicating and "NICE" are akin to women who are too
loose and "EASY." (both give in too easily to the other's demands and
lack self-respect])

====

> Cuddling with a girl at a movie.
>
> The worst feeling in the world?
>
> Sitting behind a couple cuddling at a movie.
>
> I want to die.
>

You went to the movies alone?

I had similar problems until the day I decided that I would just take a
chance and be myself around girls. Well, my life has transformed, I'm
engaged and I have many girls and women that I have befriended without any
effort, it just happens if you keep a positive outlook, radiate confidence
and smile.

Best part about it is that looks are irrelevant in this, girls (yes hot ones
too) are less interested in looks then personality.

Approach and take a chance and just be yourself.

====

> Cuddling with a girl at a movie.

Cuddling is nice, not sure about at a movie. After a while your arm
gets pins and needles; also, she might take it as a sign you're not
really interested in the film, when perhaps you are. Cuddling in bed
is better.

For me the nicest feeling in the world is heading home from work and
seeing three Argentinian parrots fly across the road. Or lying in the
sun on the terrace of a Sunday afternoon.

> The worst feeling in the world?
>
> Sitting behind a couple cuddling at a movie.

Oh, I don't mind that as long as they don't chatter or disturb my
enjoyment of the film.

For me, the worst feeling in the world is being suddenly hit with a
dose of the trots in the middle of the street halfway to work with no
public loo within grin-and-bear-it distance.

> I want to die.

Unoriginal. /Everyone/ wants to die. (Except Catholics, of course, who
have reason to fear death.)

====

I think that the love from one woman could cancel out the hate from all
other women. That's how powerful love is. If one women loved me, I
wouldn't give a shit about what any other woman thought of me.

===

>I now know why people choose to leave
> this world; the pain in the heart is so
> much worse than physical pain

Let's ask those Cancer patients about that. How about all them people in
in the Middle East getting blown up. I'm sure they would agree. You
obviously aren't putting things in context

> and it
> could be healed if the other person
> would be willing to, but when she is only
> in your dreams, there is no slution to it.

You love someone who doesn't love you.
It happens and it hurts, it it didn't there would be no poetry, no love
songs.

Wait a minute here are people using their pain productively

>I wish I could see the end of the tunnel

Have you tried LOOKING?

> and I wish I did not think with the heart
> so much,

Ah your heart doesn't actually think you know?

>but can't avoid it; can't
> shortcircuit that part of my feelings.

What you need is a good does of caster oil. Everytime you think about it
take a does of Caster Oil. That'll cure it.

>I ask God for her 'attention' but then I
>think, there's so many people with so
>much more problems and God does not
> answer them, why should he answer to
> me?

Maybe he did answer you. Maybe he is saying NO!

>This pain is very difficult to deal with and
> the sad thing is that I chose to like her
> and pursue her and pretty much hurt
> Myself.

Then STOP THAT. If I hit you with a hammer would you just say DAH A HEE
or would you smack it out of my hand. The choice IS yours

>Now I can admit that I don't really want
> to live this life, that I want to be
> nowhere and rest...

You are not saying you want to kill yourself, you are saying that you
don't want to live like this. This is not the same thing. Remember that.

>maybe as an spirit I could hover over her
> and have the chance just to see her and
> be by her side and have my dream
> come true,

Supposing when you die that's it. You just die. No spirt, no
heaven....Well then you've accomplished NOTHING. I would bet on
something with surer odds

>but my family would be very sad and that
> would not be a good situation for them;
> if I did not have anybody and I would be
> alone,

Well there's a bit of genius logic. And if I were rich I'd have money.
What's your point.

>I'd probably do it and it would be so nice
> to rest and not worry about all this; for
> now, I just hope, hope, and hope and
> inside me I don't think anything will
> happen.

Have you ever tried to worry about someone other than yourself. Take a
trip to homeless shelter or a hospital and then ask yourself...Sure it
hurts but let's get some perspective here. Will you do that? No. Why?
Cause you WANT to FEEL bad.

Stop that.

>They say things happen for a reason and
> maybe that is true, but meanwhile my
> heart hurts and my pain consumes me...

Who says that? Stupid people say that. Once you get along in life you
will come to one shocking revalation. Sometimes things "JUST" happen.
For no reason other than "because."

>that's been my story; was engaged once
> to a beautiful woman, dated a couple of
> others but the person I'm really attracted
> to right now, does not give any positive
> signs and I'm so scared to know the
> truth and to lose her forever by rushing
> tellng stuff soon.

Not knowing something isn't gonna make it so. If you love someone you
tell them. If they don't they tell you. Then you move on.

Let me tell you something about women. All women know about 5 minutes
after they meet you if they will ever have sex with you. After one hour
they know if you will ever be a candidate for a relationship.
Within 2 hours they either have the baby's names picked out or they know
"you'll due" until something better comes along.

Don't Be a chicken

If You Love Someone You Let Them Know
There ain't a lot of time before it will snow
.....Sheena Easton

====

If you are depressed, then you are in no shape to make decisions about
your worth, intelligence, ability, looks. Depression will lie to you
about everything.

====

You are at a loss because you are trying to make sense of something that has
no sense. Stop trying to understand her behaviors and why she does what she
does. Start trying to learn about her illness. Try to think intellectually
rather than emotionally, as hard as that will be.
You will never understand what she does. You can only understand what you
do in response. Give up trying to understand. It is impossible, because
there is no logic to it. Did you know there is a very high rate of suicide
among bi-polars? Your best response is education.

====

It's important to be able to be happy being with youself. If you can't,
the notion that "someone else will make me happy" is a fallacy. People
are more attractive to others if they have happiness within vs. a dependency.

====

I'm just a happy kinda person.

Once you find someone that enhances the happiness in your life you'll want a
relationship, until you meet such a person enjoy yourself as you are.

====

'Love is blind.' should be written on a t-shirt or something. Ain't that
the truth?

====

2004-03-23T14:06:00.000-08:00

Hi Ron,
I'm not much on the religious aspects of souls, but I have given a lot of
thought to my sense of self as a human being. I have felt worthless when in
the grips of depression causing me much grief. Sorting out self from
depressed-self or even understanding what self is at all has been one of my
main concerns for a time now. But at least I have been able to get past most
of my prior superstitious beliefs that were only causing more harm and
confusion. Anyway, I agree with you when it's over, it's over. Whatever
we're going to do we better do it now. For me that is learning how to be
kinder to myself without losing some hope for a better future, which I can
sometimes work toward, even if only in small steps.

Compute Free:

====

> There is nothing I would go back and do differently at 37, now that
> I'm 50.
>
> Everything I lived through then - even the painful things -
> contributed to who I am today. And I'm happy being who I am.

At 38, I was going through a divorce. At 41, I am happier then I have been
in... well shit, a really long time.

Life isn't perfect but I have found it tends to work out. I'll get back with
you when I'm 50. :)

====

Save more for retirement. [R]

====

Other than take golf lessons, I'm not sure what I would have done
differently. I wish I had traveled more back then, but it would have
been difficult for financial reasons.

I'll be 50 at the end of this year. To be honest, I don't feel a lot
different than I did at 40. I have a lot of living left to do.

====

I'm mid forties. If I could go back to 37, I'd probably go ahead and
divorce then, instead of waiting several more years. Other than that, maybe
spend less time frantically working, and more time relaxing with my family.

====

I think the answers might be profoundly different if you have kids vs. if
you don't. Since you don't mention them, I'll assume you don't. In my
situation (being about your age), I suspect that the one thing I would like
to do now, and that I would surely regret if I failed to do it, is to
improve my parenting, do a better job helping my kids succeed in school,
etc. etc. As far as "myself"--no, there's very little that I feel I MUST do
in order to be happy at 50.

====

I have no idea.
I just take a day at a time these days. I don't know what i might
have done differently, probably nothing.

====

I am like Barbra ... God has dealt me these cards .. to make me what I am
today ... to some it's not much but to me .... Life has been good ..
I just turned 46 last week ... Life isn't for sissies and it's not a
spectator sport ...
you have to enjoy every moment as it only gets better
Everything comes and goes ... (money,relationships,loneliness) and When you
least expect it ... God will provide at the right time ...
Be happy .. even with small things of life ...

====

Just turned 40, & if I were 37 again, I would have filed for divorce
then & not now.

====

> >Hmmm... well.. seeing that you're 50... and had the chance to go back to
> >37...? That would have been 13 years ago....
> >
> >Going back 13 years ago... I'd dump every last penny I could scrape
> >together, even work 2 or 3 jobs... and dump every penny I could make into
a
> >much smaller company called Microsoft.... because... by now... I'd be a
> >multi-millionaire.....
> >
> >But... no sense in looking back.... you can only look forward.... decide
> >what you want... and then go for it... what ever it is.....might as well
> >reach for that brass ring while you can....
>
> What about if it's someone that rejected you once aleady? I guess
> looking for someone similar would do the trick, would not it?

Only you can decide if the quest that you seek is worthy of your time and
energy.... the hardest part is deciding if what you seek is really what you
want... or only think that's what you want...

====

I am exactly 50. I met my STBX when I was 37. I was far from home, had
a great job that I loved, and got lonely and depressed sometimes. Most
of the time I was very happy.

What would I do differently? Maybe - not move with him to his hometown
nine months after we met, leaving my job and all my friends behind?
Then I never would have been the author of four books or gotten a
start in my writing career.

Not marry him and buy a house? Then I wouldn't be able to afford the
house I own now, and wouldn't have more money coming once the house is
sold.

Not save so much, or save more for retirement? If I'd saved more, he'd
be demanding my savings. If I'd saved less, there's no way I could
have left him when he becamse an abusive alcoholic.

I wouldn't do antything differently. I just have to live with the
consequences and get over the marriage and its collapse. Life goes on
and so do I.

Don't second-guess yourself. Think about what you're doing, but don't
mindfuck it to death with "what-ifs". Follow your head AND your heart.

====

2004-03-21T14:08:00.000-08:00

"BC" wrote
> Would you date an asian dude?

Dunno.
Haven't yet.

one who doesn't have an awesome body or face,

Depends how desperate I am.

> one who's as dull as a rubber knife,

No. But dullnessosity is relative.

one who has a crappy job,

Hmmm. See now. This is where you start to
creep the girls out. Sure looks are important.
So is a decent job. And a car. (But you don't
need all of the above to attract a girl.)
But *what you think of yourself is also incredibly
important*. i.e. if you give off an air that the
job/car/looks aren't important to you - you look good
in your own eyes and that will show and she will
be that much more likely to be attracted to you.

doesn't
> drive, live at home, don't go out, don't socialise outside of work, one
> who's moody, and is not rich?

Dear me.
No.
No.
No.
No.

> Let's be honest, would you?

======

The guys i know who are the most successful with women do exactly this.

LeModernCaveman wrote:

>Just act like you don't give a fuck that she's leaving.
>
>She wants you to pine over her. Don't give her that.
>
>Just pursue other women.
>

====

>Depends on what you mean by "intimacy". Men consider sex as being
>intimacy. Women consider talking and *knowing* each other on a
>spiritual and emotional level to be intimacy, and for most women
>(myself included), that's what is necessary before we are able to be
>sexual.

====
> Found somewhere on the net. Thought it might be of help to some
> people...
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> SURVIVE A BREAKUP
>
> Did she say "Let's just be friends", "I am not in love with you", "I
> still care about you" etc.?
> Then:
>
> 1. It's over - as in FINAL. She's gone. She's NOT coming back.
>
> 2. Her FOCUS in life is someone else already. You're nobody.
>
> 3. You're no longer welcome. DO NOT MAKE CONTACT. Do not call, do not
> write - EVER. You're annoying her.
>
> Dumpees, Wake Up:
>
> SHE'S ALREADY MOVED ON. SHE'S HAPPY. LEAVE HER ALONE. DON'T BOTHER
> HER.
>
> 4. You MUST break the attachment by focusing on YOURSELF.
>
> 5. Don't even THINK about being "friends" with her. Don't torture
> yourself.
>
> 6. Get her OUT of your life. Get her pictures, letters, and other
> reminders OUT OF SIGHT. Pack them away or trash them.
>
> 7. Acknowledge your grief - wail out loud, punch your pillow, let your
> heart mourn. Let the pain out.
>
> 8. Express your anger. Write a farewell letter to her, but DO NOT
> SEND. Write out why you were or are angry at her. Get them all down.
> And why you are angry at yourself for what you did not do
>
> 9. Exercise A LOT.
>
> 10. GET OUT of the house. Go do things YOU like to do.
>
> 11. Stay away from alcohol.
>
> 12. Determine the qualities she had that you want in future partners,
> and the qualities she had that you don't want.
>
> 13. List the lessons learned - What you should have done differently.
>
> 14. It is tempting to hold on and scary to LET GO. Say to yourself
> that you're letting go of her. LET THE PAST GO.
>
> 15. Structure your time and stay BUSY.
>
> 16. INTERRUPT yourself whenever you get stuck thinking about her and
> REDIRECT your focus onto something productive.
>
> 17. Take it ONE day at a time.
>
> 18. It's better it happened NOW rather than later down the road.
>
> 19. It's GOOD that it happened, because you're now FREE to find
> someone BETTER.
>
> 20. A NEW and BETTER life is waiting for you. You WILL find someone
> BETTER. So MOVE ON!!! - BECAUSE SHE ALREADY HAS.

=====

Gibson also said in the interview that he was nearly suicidal before he made his controversial film. “I got to a very desperate place. Very desperate. Kind of jump-out-of-a-window kind of desperate,” he said in the interview. “And I didn’t want to hang around here, but I didn’t want to check out. The other side was kind of scary. And I don’t like heights, anyway. But when you get to that point where you don’t want to live, and you don’t want to die, it’s a desperate, horrible place to be. And I just hit my knees. And I had to use ‘The Passion of the Christ’ to heal my wounds.”

=====

According to "Mental Health Through Will Training", we controltwo
things...our thoughts and our muscles. We can always replace an insecure
thought with a secure thought. Doing something objective also helps us with
our symptoms (going for a walk, cleaning the home, etc).

http://www.recovery-inc.org/introduction.html

http://www.recovery-inc.org/members/forums/FORUM.asp?FORUM_ID=11

"alvintchase" wrote in message
news:a78957eb.0403111653.480c17e6@posting.google.com...
> One thing I wonder about is if I can get to the point where I am in
> control of my thoughts...I think most of the time my thoughts are in
> control of me instead of the other way around.I don't mean I follow or
> believe whatever illogical thoughts I have,I mean I have a very hard
> time stopping my thoughts,being able to stop them...It's hard often to
> remember that a thought is just a thought,not necessarilly the
> reality.I have a very associative way of
> thinking...thoughts,ideas,memories and images are constantly going
> through my mind,I have a short attention span except for thoughts and
> feelings that I'm obsessed with ...How common is that?Is there a way
> to think in a more linear way?I know meditation is supposed to be good
> for calming the mind...I like thinking in a creative,abstract way,but
> sometimes I wonder if thinking in a more concrete way might be a
> better thing for me to work on...

2004-02-22T11:20:00.000-08:00

A life that is successful and fulfilled is no more difficult than a life of mediocrity. Successful people aren't any luckier, nor are they any more intelligent, or more skilled than the average person. Successful people are distinguised by the fact that they have chosen to do the things that will make them successful. Not just in the big decisions, but also the every day, moment-by-moment decisions that make up the bulk of living.

Life is made of choices, not chances. Which choices are you making?

-- Ralph Marston

=====

What do you expect to be doing next week? Six months from now? Five years from now? I'm not really talking about goals, or new year's resolutions. Rather, what do you really expect you'll be doing?

If you want the best out of life, you must expect the best. Because whatever you expect of yourself, whatever you expect for yourself, is what you will get.

Expectation is not the same as wishing. You can wish for a million dollars, you can even convince yourself that it will somehow fall into your hands. Yet if wishing is all you do, it won't happen. On the other hand, if you truly expect to be a millionaire, and if that expectation pervades all of your actions on a daily basis, then you'll find yourself doing whatever it takes, for as long as it takes, to make your expectation a reality.

True expectations influence every area of your life, and that is how they work their magic. You can work hard for 10 hours every day, and if you just expect to barely get by, that's what will happen. Work those same 10 hours with the expectation of getting wealthy, and suddenly you'll find all sorts of opportunities and possibilities that you never would have seen before.

What you expect, makes all the difference.

-- Ralph Marston

====

When they tell you it can't be done, don't believe it. What that really means is that it will take commitment, persistence, innovation and effort.

Don't pass up the best possibilities just because they have a cost. Do what it takes to pay that cost, to bear that burden, to reach for the best and never settle for less.

The rewards that truly have value are the ones for which you give your best. Be fully willing to do it, and it most certainly can be done.

-- Ralph Marston

====

Persistence is
Anyone can have persistence. It requires no special skill. There's nothing to it really. Persistence is as simple as putting one foot in front of another.
Yes, you'll probably stumble every once in a while. And yes, you could let that stop you.

Or you could simply get back up, learn from your mistakes, and keep on going, with even more determination than before. Persistence is a choice you are always free to make.

Your mind will sometimes fill with doubts, excuses, and reasons to quit. Persistence is a matter of letting them go, as you move on ahead and leave them behind.

Where do you want to go? Persistence will take you there.

-- Ralph Marston

====

Confidence
Confidence is a golden key to achievement of your most treasured dreams. Confidence will open doors for you and will enable you to perform with excellence once you get inside those doors. Confidence will earn you respect and will get you results. Confidence will free you from countless hours of wasted worry. It will bring a priceless energy and enthusiasm to whatever you undertake.
Confidence is not something you acquire by seeking it directly. Instead, it grows as you give it more reason to grow, as you make the foundation for that confidence more solid. True confidence comes not as a result of attempting to be confident, but rather as a result of working to make a difference in the world.

Confidence comes from knowing that what you're doing is right, and that what you're doing is right for you. It is built by taking risks and seeking challenges. It is strengthened through experience, perseverance and commitment.

Know who you are and where you're going, and your confidence will grow. Keep yourself focused and disciplined, and your confidence will soar. Live with integrity and the awesome power of true confidence will be yours with which to do great things.

-- Ralph Marston

====

2004-02-21T20:34:00.000-08:00

Virgo sums up my argument better than I ever could.

"My advice would be to stay in as good physical shape as you can.
When you're in your early 20's, pretty much every guy works out
and it doesn't differentiate you from other guys very much, but as
you get older and older you'll find it easier and easier to stand
out because fewer and fewer guys continue working out. Go to a mall
and look around. How many reasonably fit 50 year old guys do you
see? Hardly any. (Same for women as well, and I'd advise the same
thing for them.) I suggest working on something that you KNOW will
produce results -- yourself. Direct your energy and frustration
there. If you're truly frustrated, and I mean really frustrated to
the degree that I was in my early and mid 20's, then within a year
or two you'll find yourself in better shape than just about anyone
you'll encounter. If, on the other hand, this all seems like too
much effort for you, then I would argue that you're no where near
the depths that I was at.

Same thing with school, job, or whatever. Keep an eye out for
unicorns (i.e. girls interested in you) of course, but direct most
of your energy into something that you KNOW will produce results.
If getting a girlfriend seems hopeless, and everything you do towards
this goal doesn't seem to work, take a vacation and put some effort
into something that at least you know will get results. Look at it
this way. For some reason you've been dealt a losing hand of cards
in the MOTOS game in this life. Then I say fu*k that game and play
another one that you CAN win. *THEN* go back to the other game from
a position of strength, instead of a position of weakness! Do it!"

1) The only things I would add--if you find yourself in one of my two
categories (1) the truly hopeless and (2) 1-4 rated guys who
absolutely refuse to settle for 1-4 rated women--is to not do any of
this with an eye towards getting women and to never go back to that
"other game"! I go one step further: do whatever it takes to flush
romantic relationships from your mind. As Danimal suggests, maybe you
have to live in the woods if necesary. In this category, you will
never achieve what you require and what you desire. Write it off.
Forever.

2) If any of you are like me--and I suspect a number of you are--you
simply are not willing to settle for the 1-4 rated women in your range
despite all the advice saying you should. Don't. It's not fair to the
woman and will only drive you to frustration. Heed Virgo's advice: if
the hand fate has dealt you re: romance is a broken straight, than
fold immediately and pursue a hand in which you can do better. I see
too much here, particularly among the 25+ crowd, that tells me that
you are running into this brick wall over and over again when your
talents--writing abilities, steady jobs, humor, computer skills,
etc.--could lead you to so much more.

As an aside, Virgo,

3) Another thing I disagree with was that when I was a
late-teen/early-20s guy and before I wrote women off to pursue real
goals I could really attain, and was sunk in a funk with seemingly no
promising lights at its termination, I never got the fitness bug you
have. I jog. Still do. It's fun. But I disagree with this:

"If, on the other hand, this all seems like too
much effort for you, then I would argue that you're no where near
the depths that I was at"

Anyhow, get to work!

=====

> what about a man who's 30 and due to social anxiety has never even
> approached a girl, let alone dated or had sex with 1-but is now slowly
> making progress with the anxiety-and keep in mind this man is average
> looking, above average financially and has a good body-what is your advice
> for him?

1) ***see a psychiatrist (not a therapist) about the social anxiety, ASAP.***
Say yes to drugs.

2) Dress well, in *all* circumstances. As a man you have not the
luxury of choosing when opportunities may present themselves.
Maintain a good haircut. Get into excellent shape. If you feel an wave
of hopelessness, go immediately to lift weights, or if you can't, do
pushups. It increases testosterone which improves mood and
confidence. Actually, increasing testosterone is probably a good idea
overall; there may be pheromonal signaling whereby women are attracted
to men who produce more testosterone, which is a precursor for various
sex-linked steroidal chemicals emitted from the skin.

3) start approaching women, for the hell of it. Make friends with
guys who know alot of women.

4) invest money wisely, but figure out not-excessively expensive but
effective ways of displaying financial competence. For example,
always wear high quality, clean, polished shoes and matching belt.
Shoe repair stores are your friend, as are sales at high-end department
stores. Things that nerdguys don't ever think of doing. Dress
a moderate level better than co-workers.

Remember that women notice the clothes that men are wearing; men
notice the clothes that women aren't wearing.

Yes, you will have to lower yourself to do stupid consumerish
things. Get over it, nerdboy.

Devote twice as much discretionary spending to things to make yourself
more attractive as opposed to nerdy toys that you like.

Every time you buy a computer game, make yourself get new shoes or
clothes.

Every hour you watch TV or surf the internet, take two to work out
or socialize in coed circumstances.

5) make yourself smile in social circumstances. Always sit and stand with
good posture: imagine a rope pulling up from your sternum to the
ceiling or sky. Practice continuously. For a man, both feet should
remain on the ground with even weight on them.

Women notice the 'confident swagger' in physical body movement the
way a man notices the hooters on them nymphs.

Evolution has attuned them to notice external manifestations of
social status and internal testosterone levels the way it has
attuned us to notice 0.7 waist to hip ratio.

Fortunately, we can fake it better than they can. In caveman
days there were no shrinks and little transference of
self-introspective knowledge like this. People acted according
to their emotions, and if they were a gamma male, they acted
that way unconciously and the female's instinctive genetic
program operated successfully to quash his sorry genotype.

6) learn to speak *slower*, with a lower pitched voice. To practice,
do what radio broadcasters do, talk (by yourself) while "humming",
to get low pitched warm vibration in chest and diaphragm.

7) do whatever is necessary to get into new social circles, without
burning old ones.

8) you will have to make nearly every sexual advance. yes, it is
unfair. Get over it, nerdboy.

Remember:

man's nightmare, blind date with a whale;
woman's nightmare, blind date with a dork.

Some external symptoms of "dork", which can be altered with practice.

A) physically uncomfortable
B) high pitched, whiny voice.
C) poorly dressed
D) obviously socially uncomfortable

Yes, it is superficial and stupid. Get over it, nerdboy.

A woman views a dorkish man who does not bother to fix these things
the way a man view a blobbious woman who doesn't stop inhaling the
Cheezy Poofs, and then protests 'waaanh I'm not fat dammit, I'm big
boned!'

Also remember, if you think you are really shy and that's your only
problem, you may be disappointed to imagine that when you become less
shy (in the future) everything will be great. In fact you probably
have other problems in the list above. Fortunately these are pretty
easy to fix if you have a brain and a can-do/must-do attitude.

Sympathy from women helps you feel better for a little while, but
remember *NEVER* to seek sympathy for social deficiencies from women
you'd like to date. *NEVER* break this rule. Humorous discussion of
past deficiencies, as long as it is crystal clear that they have been
solved in the present, can be suitable self-effacing social chit chat.
Sort of like Donald Trump saying how much he hated working at Burger
King at age 16 or something. It works ONLY if he is rich now.

>> I beg to differ, to strongly disagree with the above. You cannot shut
>> down an instinct that's as important as love/attraction/sex (or
>> replace it with some other distraction). That is called repression and
>> it's mentally very unhealthy. If Virgo or anyone else has done/ is
>> doing that, then I suspect a major psychosis would manifest itself
>> somewhere along the way.

You don't repress the instinct, you recognize it, but use its
anxious force to encourage you to do something which you know
will pay off.

====

====

`The Shawshank Redemption" is a movie about time, patience and loyalty

====

2004-02-18T07:17:00.000-08:00

I just realized this morning that today is the 2nd anniversary
of my final divorce decree. I remember thinking it was a big
deal last year. It's not very much of one this time around.

Thinking back over the last 2 years, it's hard to believe how
much things have changed from one month to the next. It has
been a rollercoaster ride, but so far I don't regret any of it.
The first few months seem so long ago, and I feel so different
than I did then. I was just beginning to finally move on, but
more than a little unsure about how to approach the rest of my
life.

I wasn't looking for a relationship then, but as many of you
know, I fell into one rather quickly. A year of ups and downs
followed as the relationship peaked, cratered, and then
transitioned into something else as we parted. During that time
it seemed like everything else was falling apart. I started
last summer feeling like I was starting over yet again while
swimming upstream. You just can't swim against the currents for
very long.

After some rebuilding, I started a new career, partly out of
sheer necessity. I half-heartedly tried dating until I pretty
much lost interest and realized (once again) that casual dating
just isn't my thing. Ironically, the one woman I met that
seemed really nice was fighting some issues of her own and
basically fled the scene while apologizing. I tried to help her
as a friend for a while, but she was just too overwhelmed and
faded out of the scene around Thanksgiving last year.

I poured myself into the new work and began to really enjoy it.
I met a lot of new people as a side benefit and that was fun.
Interestingly enough, the idea of being and staying single
really started growing on me and I realized I was about as happy
and comfortable with myself as I had been in many years.

My only real lingering stress was caused by financial issues due
to the fledgling new career. Amazingly enough, my phone started
ringing a couple of months ago as signs of life began to emerge
in my given-up-for-dead engineering job. At this moment I'm
buried in work, behind schedule, and trying to juggle two jobs.
Go figure.

Coincidentally, the woman who had disappeared around
Thanksgiving started communicating again. We started doing some
fun things together as friends. That took an interesting turn
last weekend when I realized she was letting her guard down and
seems ready to be more than just friends. I'm not sure where
we're headed at the moment, if anywhere, but there's no hurry.

There's really no point to this (one of those long posts I
complain about) except that it becomes more clear to me every
day that you really never know what's around the corner. Things
can change quickly and in totally unexpected ways. Sometimes
this is a good thing.

What have I learned? I'm not sure, but my best stab at it would
be never take anything for granted, never give up, and make the
most out of the cards you're dealt.

2004-02-18T03:43:00.000-08:00

Help people, take away their headaches. Be persistent. I rehired
someone I had fired over 2 years ago, because he was persistent with me,
and was willing to help me out in several jams. He proved valuable and
he's more focused in his work now, so I'm keeping him unless the same
problem I had before crops up again. In other words, don't take no for
an answer. Keep trying.

....

I gotta admit, he knows how to schmooze me. He brown noses real well,
and the guy constantly cracks me up. So, it's definitely a factor. If
I didn't like him personally, I wouldn't have done it. Not that I want
friends, but I want people who have a good attitude about the work. I
don't want grief. But mainly, he would call me every 2 months or so
"just to say hi", make me laugh, and that was it. Finally, I got to a
point where I needed someone who was very flexible and could help me in
a jam, and he was ready and willing to do it, so I gave him a second chance.

2004-02-15T14:38:00.000-08:00

Soft flowing hair Shinning in the sun Kind eyes that hide sadness And a gentle nature I want you home I don’t want to forget you

I want to let everyone know, that no matter where life takes you, wether bad or good, love and happyness will find a way..but only if you are strong enough and have enough hope to allow it to. I lost this man who was very dear to me, because he lost all hope, and felt he had nothing, when he had everything, he just didnt want to see or try. Although i do love him and miss him and wish he were still here, his choice was still slefish, and has caused so much pain among many people who were involved with his life. But to everyone, remember...Life IS Worth Living, all You have to do is believe and have faith.

Just a kind of consultant, juno.
My only talents are problem solving and being persistent.

2004-02-15T14:36:00.000-08:00

The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?
the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Psalm 27:1

Michelle says the secret of her success is having a chirpy smile and cheery word for everyone.

“You just have to keep your feet on the ground, stay polite and have good manners,” she says.

===

What you are saying is true. Even if we had a war and 30% of the males
were killed off it would still be hard to find a girlfriend because of
the harem factor. hugh hefner is in his seventies and has 12 young
girlfriends. No one talks about the 12 guys in their twenties who
don't have any girlfriend.
Don't sit around dreaming about how you will eventually find a
girlfriend ,because you would have found one by now if there was one
for you.
Concentrate on saving up your money so you can go overseas to find a
girl friend. You should also consider getting a surrogate mother to
have your child. Use an egg from a very beautiful and smart female so
your child will have a happier life. We need to clean up the gene pool
so that all this stupid suffering can be curtailed.

===

There was some extreme skier who said, "Never say something is
impossible until you've tried it 700 times."

===

I don't care what her
height/weight is, I don't care what her job is, I don't care how many
degrees she has, and don't even care what she looks like, just so long as
she's not incredibly far below average.
I really don't understand this, I would hardly consider myself an Alpha
Male. I'm fat, ugly, anti-social. Don't like pubs, clubs, would much rather
go for a walk in the country or on the beach.

Yet I have only ever been out of a relationship by choice. Even when I lived
as a tramp and a hermit for two years, I still managed to find a woman to
share my humble bender with.

Yes women like the glamour of the Alpha male, but in the end they much
prefer kindness, consideration, and most of all someone who will listen to
them. This does not mean becoming a doormat either. It is more to do with
sharing and being comfortable.

Adrian

===

You of all ppl should know that women don't look, they feel. There is no logic involved at all; only emotions. And if you wanna climb into a woman's being - which is what i sense you're trying to do - you have to check you mind at the door and learn to think with your heart.

For us men, this daunting task can be a lifelong one - and one which is quite difficult to do w/o being judgemental.

Once you are skilled (and i personally have embarked on this journey) as a feeling being, you'll realise that the answer to your question cannot be put into words!!!

You just know.

THAT was the BEST responses I've EVER heard from ANY man on these boards!!!

Wow . . .

Totally agree with you too!!!" - BillyburgGal

It's AMAZING how well he nailed it!

This is why we women are so easily hurt. It's sad, but so.

I don't think most guys realize that EVERYTHING for most women is primarily emotional.

Think with your heart not your head.

it's about the "connection"

to me connection encompasses chemistry, both physical and personality. and the way you "click"

maybe it's all lumped in one for some.......

Barry, I don't think there's just ONE thing or act that sets anyone 'apart.' I mean, it could be a BUNCH of things - and as others have posted, every woman is different. I mean, that's like asking a man the same question - how would YOU answer that???

For me, physical attraction is obviously a start - but I've dated guys that I wasn't initially attracted to at first. Why? Because they had a few qualities that I liked and/or admired. Ultimately? It boils down to personality - this is the #1 reason!

If I like a man's personality, i.e. it meshes well with mine - he's a keeper. Whether I find him physically attractive or not (of course, I'm not talking 'troll' either). You could grow to find someone physically attractive, if you like everything else about them . . . it's called: falling in love.

===

Guard your heart

===

dmocsny@mfm.com (The Danimal) wrote in message news:...
> trainspotter199@hotmail.com (Trainspotter) wrote in message news:<25414bb1.0401130222.e17e105@posting.google.com>...
> [...]
> > In my case, I've had the beautiful girls...including some real
> > stunners. My "disgust" is not so much with meeting and getting girls,
> > but more with the nature of the relationships (and the dynamics which
> > govern them)that ensue. Point is that even though my life isn't where
> > I'd want it to be, doesn't mean I don't know a thing or two.
> [...]
>
> I don't know how to stop being a total loser with women. Because
> I never was a *total* loser with women. My results were never
> spectacular in terms of batting average, but I pretty much always
> had some ability to attract some women.
>
> Even when I was 15 years old and I had no concept of how to
> exploit opportunities when they happened, thinking back I can
> recall that I did have some chances with girls my age. (It would
> be interesting to re-live childhood with an adult's knowledge.
> Very interesting indeed. Talk about being a naughty boy.)

No kidding.

>
> Guys who have zero success with women don't need advice from me.
> What I do to meet women probably wouldn't work the same way for
> them. Those guys need advice from some former total loser who is
> not a loser now. For example, some guy who was an involuntary
> virgin at age 40 and then suddenly began scoring entire cheerleading
> squads (well, not the co-ed squads) AND HAVING CHEERLEADERS
> ENDORSING HIM ON THE RECORD.

I'm not sure that would do the trick, either. You note that what you
do to meet women "probably wouldn't work the same way" for other guys.
I don't see that problem going away just because the advice giver was
a former total loser.

>
> (That last requirement automatically rules out all the seduction
> method commercial hucksters I've read on Usenet. Lots of women
> like to blab about the men in their lives, so where are the
> women blabbing about the seduction hucksters?)

Fair point, but there is some decent advice floating around.

>
> [...]
> > As the saying goes, you can either learn from others, or you can learn
> > the hard way.
>
> The question, though, is what aspects of your knowledge are
> teachable to others?

Salient question, and I'm not certain that I know the answer...but
I'll give it a shot. I don't think that many guys could replicate my
approach to women, as it is just too individualized. I've been around
a ton of guys as they picked up girls, and I've never seen a guy use
my approach.

Maybe the closest match for me is David D.'s "Cocky and Funny", but
that might be only about 10 percent of it. In short, I agree with you
that most of what I do is probably not very teachable to others.In
order to use my approach, a guy would have to be me...which he isn't.
I get that.

BUT, (and here is the exciting twist lol) there are a lot of things
that are teachable. For example, what NOT to do. Many guys spend a
hell of a lot of time going down utterly fruitless paths, wasting
ungodly amounts of time and emotional energy on very low percentage
options. Some of these dead ends seem so compelling at the time - to
the person with no experience. That's the time for the person with
experience to chime in and say - "Dude, wake up!" I've gained some
very hard earned knowledge, some of which I do think is teachable. You
don't have to "be me" in order for it to apply.

And while it may be true that I can't teach someone to approach things
as I would and replicate what I have accomplished, there are general
principles at work...not all of which are as obvious as one might
think. I know that in life it has taken me a lot of time before I
"got" certain things that now seem so clear, and I doubt I'm alone in
that.

>
> For example, when I think about the women I've dated,
> and I like to think about them when I'm alone in libraries,
> there are two important things I don't know:
>
> 1. How I attracted them to the extent that I did.
> 2. How some guy who was not attractive to those women at the
> time could have changed himself to be attractive to them.

When you are dealing with a particular individual, in this case
yourself, you really can't know. But there are broader principles at
work that tend to yield results in the area of attraction. We can
"teach" those things that tend to work, even if we can't be sure about
how things played out between a particular guy and a particular woman.

I think it is a fallacy to focus too much on any one particular
instance. For example, let's take as a hypo a guy who lives in a major
urban center that has a significant crime rate. Undoubtedly, this guy
has been in physical proximity to criminally minded people many times
over the course of his life. Maybe he unknowingly was standing in
front of one at the convenience store check out, and maybe again at
the bus stop. Maybe hundreds if not thousands of other times as well
over the course of a lifetime. Then, one day, he is attacked. Do we
really learn that much from that one particular instance? Why was he
attacked that time, while passing unscathed through all of the other
dangerous scenarios?

But just because we may have difficulty learning much of "teachable"
value from that particular instance, doesn't mean that there isn't a
lot that is teachable about avoiding criminal assault. A big part of
that is learning what to avoid - bad neighborhoods, the wrong crowd,
certain "recreational" options, etc. And we can also teach certain
affirmative steps - self defense, home security, etc. Perhaps none of
these things would have helped in a given particular instance, but
that doesn't mean that they don't improve odds.

Just because I can't be sure why one particular criminal attacked a
guy, while another criminal let that same guy pass
unhindered...doesn't mean there is nothing teachable about the
subject. Similarly, just because you can't say with any certainty why
one girl went for you while another said "no thanks", doesn't mean
that there isn't valuable information about the subject that can be
passed on.

>
> All I really know is that I put myself out there for some
> women to evaluate. Most said "no thanks" and a few said
> "oh yeah." I pretty much ran the same rap on all of them.
> I couldn't tell you why it failed most of the time but not
> all of the time.

Sure, just like the crime victim doesn't know why he was picked out
one time, but allowed to pass unhindered many other times. What was he
doing "right" all those other times?

>
> Apart from some improbable breakthroughs like becoming a
> rock star, what can the average man really do to make himself
> dramatically more attractive to women who don't find him
> attractive now?

A lot. Getting in better shape, dressing better, carrying themselves
better, and in many cases just getting out there and gaining some
exposure. All sorts of things.

>
> Looking at it from our point of view, how often does some
> woman through deliberate effort transform herself from
> unattractive to attractive? Looking at just one relevant
> factor---body weight---only something like 3% of
> obese people can manage something as simple as changing
> their eating habits and sticking to it.

That is certainly true. Some changes require more discipline than
others.

>
> Change is really hard for most people. For example, take
> a person's writing style. If someone habitually writes
> sentences in the passive voice, they aren't likely to
> switch to writing in the active voice, even if they
> understand why it would be a good idea.

No particular person in mind, I'm sure. lol

>
> It takes a huge, sustained effort to change just one
> habit, and a typical personality consists of many habits.

Again, some changes require far more effort than others. I'm amazed at
how much difference dressing better makes, and that's something that
doesn't require nearly the level of effort that, for instance, getting
and staying in shape demands.

>
> When people evaluate potential sex partners, they base their
> evaluation on a subconcious summing of numerous factors, any
> one of which could be costly and time-consuming for a person
> to adjust.

Sure. There are always costs to consider. That's life. If you want the
benefit, you pay the cost. An important question is whether the cost
is such that it is reasonable for a typical guy to pay it.

>
> If you are talking about some loserguy who has had zero
> success in attempts with hundreds of women, he probably has
> MANY factors that would require changing for him to become
> attractive to women.

I wonder how many losergys have actually made attempts with hundreds
of women.

>
> He could skip the hassle by becoming a rock star, but only
> a handful of people out of the thousands highly qualified
> manage to break through each year that way. Anybody with
> even a slim chance to be a rock star is probably already
> trying.

Telling someone to become a rock star is probably not "reasonable",
given the long odds. But pointing out the utility of certain changes
that are within the typical guy's grasp might be.

======

I have fought manic-depression, cancer, rare pulmonsry disease, stroke,
seizures, fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue--and I always wonder what's next.
I have come to terms with loosing the life and career that I had, loosing
many acquaintances, and have become content with each and every ten minutes
that I can have that is good. It's take 52 years to get here but I am.

Here is something I wrote about my past year. It tells of a journey.....

I'm not a "religious" person-but highly spiritual

My Reflection
I've had a lot of time to reflect this year,
I've done a lot of praying, meditating and searching.
People may think I don't have the "perfect life"
(or maybe even 'a life'), my health is not the best;
I don't, and many times, can't get out and about;
but what I do is "get IN a lot".
It has been 7 years now since my stroke,
I can't even imagine that it has been that long,
where has the time gone?, but in all this time,
I have found not ONE thing negative about having the stroke.
Around every corner and every challenge, there has been light!
Everything that has happened and is happening everyday,
opens my eyes to the world, to people, to time,
to the environment, to abilities-not disabilities,
to "MY reality, to myself and to My .
I cannot imagine that I would be better off now,
if another path had been chosen for me at that time.
I was given a gift at birth, I know and have realized that gift;
and I promise to myself, and to all of you.
that I will open my gift and share it with you for all of my time.
God grant me the
Serenity to accept the things
I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference.

Sijka

"alvintchase" wrote in message
news:c1029ba7.0401201241.1165517@posting.google.com...
> There is an aquaitance of mine,the daughter of my mom's friend who has
> Cystic Fibrosis.She'll have to have a lung transplant soon,an extremly
> serious operation...I don't know her well,but she seems to be a very
> nice woman.It makes me so angry that people have diseases like
> this,where they don't know how to cure it...

2004-02-15T14:34:00.000-08:00

it makes me sad that this person has so much power over you that he can
control your future. no one should have that much power over anyone else.
he probably doesn't even realize he has so much. you need to take the
control back and take charge of your own destiny. don't let him be the
reason you don't succeed. don't let him be what holds you back. don't give
him so much control over your future. he can't have that much power over
you without your permission. it's time to take it back.

> What is smarter? To submit and then withdraw if I am not well enough in a
year
> to deal, or to not submit and just face limitations are perhaps forever?

smarter? or safer? those are 2 different things. the smart thing to do
would be to go on with your life as if he didn't exist. the safe thing to
do would be to hide away in your home forever and never venture out again.
if you do the smart thing, you will be experiencing life. all of it. the
hopes and fears. the obstacles and the victories. the sorrows and the
joys. if you do the safe thing, you won't have a life at all. but you'll
be "safe." the decision is yours. not john's. not your ex's. not your
daughter's. yours. what you do with your life is up to you.

My
> inclination is to submit. But my coping ability has not functioned in
regard
> to him for 7 years. Not sure another year makes much difference.

ask yourself, "what's the worst thing that can happen if i submit?" you'll
see john again? you'll have accomplished something? you'll mess up and
fail? okay, let's say you fail. well, if you never even try, you certainly
can't succeed! so how is failing any worse than not trying at all? to
quote a famous old adage, "it's better to try and fail, than to never have
tried at all." and what if you see john? will that cause you to fall down
and die? or will it give you a chance to prove to YOURSELF (not john) that
you are a capable woman all on your own...whether he exists in your life or
not?

it's time to take charge of your life, rosena. life shouldn't be about what
happens TO you. it should be about what you do with it. bad things happen
in life. more to some than to others. but it's our choice whether or not
we simply endure the bad things, or whether we move past them and live life
to the fullest. no one can make that choice for us. it's up to each one of
us to decide for ourselves how we will live.

we're in your court, rosena. we believe in you. but even if we didn't, you
could still do this. because you are stronger than you think. don't let
anyone tell you otherwise. and don't believe the BS that you hear in your
head. the BS that the depression tells you. it's a lie. it only matters
what YOU believe, girl. so, believe in yourself!!!! who ELSE are ya gonna
believe in?!!

2004-02-11T05:30:00.000-08:00

I think it's not so much that God stinges on His blessings, so much as we
just don't know how many blessings we already have. I live in an
apartment without heat, but I live in a warmer climate and I have shelter
from the rain; I am thankful for this. Enough food every month can be a
stretch, and has been for many years, but I always have something to eat,
and I've managed to get through; I am thankful for this.

Perhaps we're all coming at this from the wrong perspective. Instead of
complaining about what we don't have, we should be thankful for what we do.

Sometimes God doesn't. God is not a big sugar daddy in the sky.
Sometimes He wants us to learn how to do something ourselves. Why? I
haven't the faintest, and I've had "talks" with God about this. All I
can say is that God is God and has His own reasons for what He does.

Prayers never fail. God hears them all. Sometimes the answer is no, and
sometimes the act of praying itself is all that's needed. Sometimes when
I pray I feel much better afterwards, like I've been able to unload a big
problem on my mind. Whether or not God helps is another thing, but
talking to Him about it is wonderful in and of itself.

====

>>You can't go too crazy worrying about what everyone thinks. Get a boyfriend,
>then its "when are you getting married, then how about kids, etc. You have to
>live your life for yoourself. >

Exactly. When you look at the horrible relationships people are
willing to endure just so they can catagorize themselves as "involved
in a relationship".... it's really bizarre and sad.

I could have written this paragraph myself, minus the goatee. Hang in there Harley,
even though it's painful at times, you have to admit there are a few moments when
being a destined bachelor, like ourselves, has some advantages.

--

not me, i don't have a girlfriend. so I don't fit into your neat little
theory.

but I remember many years ago when I had my first girlfriend. I was a
depressed teenager, somehow I believed having a girlfriend would
magically cure my depression. I had my first lover at a ripe old age, it
was kinda' nice, but the most deprssing discovery of my life occured. "I
have a girlfriend and I'm still depressed!?" what a bummer.

I hope you get the point. There are depressed people without partners
and there are depressed people with partners. The former often blame
that circumstance for their depression, but they're wrong!

2004-02-10T14:43:00.000-08:00

Isn't it delightful the things you can do when you are lonely?
Such as having a small success that makes you happy, but then you realize
that you have no one to share that little piece of happiness with, so
instead you walk a couple of miles through the coal black woods in the
moonless night, and lie on your back at the ocean listening to the waves and
watching the stars.
This would never have worked out if I had had somebody to share happy
moments with, I would have been far too busy sharing with her.

Miserable thought of the day: This world doesn't have so much do offer me,
now does it.

====

If I could have my way I'd get the whole world to read Fromm or
Peck as a set-work book BEFORE they were allowed to leave
school. Peck says:

"To serve as effectively as it does to trap us into marriage, the
experience of falling in love probably must have as one of its
characteristics the illusion that the experience will last forever.
This illusion is fostered in our culture by the commonly held
myth of romantic love, which has as its origins in our favourite
childhood fairy tales, wherein the prince and princess, once
united, live happily forever after, The myth of romantic love
tells us, in effect, that for every young man in the wordl there
is a young woman who was 'meant for him' and vice versa. Moreover,
the myth implies that there is only one man meant for a woman and
only one woman for a man and this has been predetermined 'in the
stars'. When we meet the person for whom we are intended,
recognition comes through the fact that we fall in love. We have
met the person for whom all the heavens intended us, and since
the match is perfect, we will then be able to satisfy all of each
other's needs forever and ever, and therefore live happily forever
after in perfect union and harmony. Should it come to pass, however,
that we do not satisfy or meet all of each other's needs and friction
arises and we fall out of love, then it is clear that a dreadful mistake
was made, we misread the stars, we did not hook up with our one and
only perfect match,what we thought was love was not real or 'true'
love, and nothing can be done about the situation except to live
unhappily ever after or get divorced."

M. Scott Peck "The Road Less Travelled".

***
Another quote: "...we confuse cathecting with loving..."

["Cathecting" just means that we give more and more of our energy
to something as it becomes more and more important to us. It stands
to reason that the more important it becomes to us the more energy
we give it.

If I give someone my energy and they don't give me their energy
in return, there is an imbalance. We see this imbalance in so many
posts here: A likes B. A can't say a word when in B's company.
A therefore gives B power over A. A DOES IT TO HIMSELF!

The other side of the last paragraph is "testing" - when B takes
advantage of his power over A, thereby intimidating A even more:
all A wants is to be adored, so he doesn't see it coming.

But the key in all these situations is that if A controls his
own mind, B cannot take A's power away from him.]

All that Peck is saying by using the words: "...we confuse cathecting
with loving..." is that we confuse someone or something being
important to us with the concept of love. Love is not a feeling.
Love is not an object we possess. Love is an action - something
we do for the other person's (and by so doing, our own!) spiritual
development/awareness.

Sometimes we need to make loving choices *despite* our feelings
of cathexis - cathexis tends to hold close, whereas love lets
go. Any parent with a bit of savvy can tell you how this works
with kids. Well it works the same way throughout our lives.

Both cathexis and love are giving, but the motivations are
usually slightly different.

Beginning to understand this led to a shift in awareness deep within
me. It was the first of many shifts. Every day I learn something new
about this new (new to me at least) paradigm.

I never want to be that confused ever again and keep working through
more and more of the layers of confusion that society and my own
ego have seduced me with.

Disclaimers:
1. I am not saying I am better than anyone else. We are all unique and
serve a special purpose. We are at once equal and unique.
We are all teachers and students. Imo encountering and grasping the
paradoxes on our individual paths leads us towards Truth.
2. I do not mean to be sexist by using "him" instead of her. Sexes
to me are pretty much interchangeable. The methods/tools might be
different (yin-yang), but the processes are pretty much the same.

====

We expect or imagine something in our heads based on previous experiences or/and simply because pesimism; said and done, when the moment of truth comes up, we are so pesimistec that with just a glance we confirm our worst expectations or what we suspected. It is not with careful reevaluation and time that we realize that we did not get our bad expectations but a cloud in our minds lead us to believe so darkening our views and letting us forget all the details we should've kept in mind when eveluating the situation.

====

When we are alone, it is much easier to relate to the great minds and thoughts contained in books, audio tapes, movies, and other media. It's also easier to relate to the great ideas and thoughts in our own mind. It's important to develop and appreciation for ourselves, for the pleasure of our own company. A pro at self-love should seldom give the excuse, "I would have gone, but I couldn't find anybody to go with me." Go alone.

Long walks or quiet meditations can help us clarify our goals and contemplate pathways of fulfillment. Time alone also allows for inspiration - that magical instant in which an idea, discovery, or solution appears in the mind from seemingly nowhere. If you are busy chattering with another over incidentals, your moment of inspiration might get lost in the clamor.

Solitude also allows for creative expression. Whatever we would like to express about ourselves, in whatever form we could like to express it, often requires solitary pursuit. Whether these are professional creations or the pastime of a hobbyist, creative expression can lead to some of the more satisfying moments of self-love.

Perhaps one of the most enjoyable aspects of solitude is doing what you want when you want to do it, with the absolute freedom (external realities aside) to change what you're doing at will. --- Love 101

I've always acted alone. Americans admire that enormously. Americans admire the cowboy leading the caravan aline astride his horse, the cowboy entering a village or city alone on his horse --- Henry Kissinger

I live in that solitude which is painful in youth, but delicious in the eyars of maturity --- Albert Einstein

When we commit to something, we are telling the goal-fulfillment mechanism, "I want this."
In order to have something new, we must expand our comfort zone to include the new thing. The bigger the new thing, the more the comfort zone must expand. And comfort zones are most often expanded though discomfort. As they say in weight training: "No pain, no gain."
When people don't understand that being uncomfortable is part of the process of achievement, they use the discomfort as a reason not to do. Then they don't get what they want. We must learn ot tolerate discomfort in order to grow.

When we fail to accept ourselves, all of ourselves - the good, the bad, the ugly, and the beautiful - it is very difficult to get anything done, especially loving ourselves.
This lack of acceptance seems to stem from our desire to fit in, to get along, to be "the same." This Obviouly destroys our uniqueness. It lops off the best and the worst of what we are.
Ironically, we generally admire, imulate, and even adore people because of their uniquiness. Their special qualities - not their run-our-of-the-mill-just-like-everyone-else-qualities -attract us to others.
If we truly accept our negative and our positive, we can do something with them - we can explit the positive and comopensate for the negative.

"If you accept your limitations you go beyond them." -- Brendan Francis

Friends are people we spend time with because we like spending time with them. They're the people we save our anecdotes for, watch the game with, gossip with and about.
That seems to be the basis of friendship - liking: we like being with them, like the way they treat us, and simplu like them. This eventually leads to love.
Unlike romantic relationshhips, in which lust becaomes love in a dangerously brief time , liking turning to loving in fredshihps is an unhurried, gradual, organi process.
Because of the freedom and enjoyment friends give each other, frindships are among the most valuable relationships around.

====

Too Old?...

So you think you're too old, huh? Well,
here's 20 reasons, why you're never
too old to accomplish your dreams.

At age 40, Hank Aaron hit his 715th
home run, more than anyone had ever
hit.

At age 41, Christopher Columbus
landed in the New World.

At age 44, Marie Curie won the Nobel
Prize in chemistry.

At age 49, Mario Puzo published, The
Godfather.

At age 52, Ludwig Van Beethovan
composed the Ninth Symphony.

At age 53, Margaret Thatcher was
elected Prime Minister of Britain--the
first woman to hold that office. Yeah,
Margaret!

At age 55, Alex Haley published Roots.

At age 57, Annie Peck climbed Mount
Huascaran in the Andes. She was the
first person to reach the top.

At age 59, Clara Barton founded the
Red Cross.

At age 63, Francis Galton revealed to
the world that no two people have the
same fingerprints and revolutionized
crime fighting in the process.

At age 64, John Pierpont Morgan
formed U.S. Steel, the world's first
billion dollar corporation.

At age 65, Laura Ingalls published
Little House In the Big Woods, the
first story in the popular "Little House
on the Prairie," series.

At age 68, Clifford Batt swam the English Channel.

At age 69, Mother Teresa won the Nobel Peace Prize.

At age 78, Grandma Moses began taking painting seriously. Soon
afterward, her career took off.

At age 79, Benjamin Franklin invented the bifocals.

At age 92, George Burns starred in the movie, Eighteen Again

====

I am about to lose the one thing that means the most to me
My wife
I love her, more than anything in the world, I treat everyday with her as it
was our last, because I feel it will be soon.
I didn't really lose her, I drove her away, in the things that I have done
in the past, the way I treated her.
I was never the greatest husband, and I know that, unfortunately, I know
that now, not then. Even with all the changing I have done in the past few
months, I feel it might be to late for us. I do not want it to end. I
realized what I had long before I found out she wasn't happy, and I started
changing before she told me she was thinking we should end it. I was to
late, we are going to counseling tonight for the first time, but she says
she is going more for me, than to save anything. Some of my mistakes, taking
her for always being there, doing the things I needed done. Never thanking
her enough for all the things she did for me. Being to jealous. Always
watching over her, wanting to know where she is at all times. Never trusting
her fully. Degrading her. Being mean and playing 'mind games' with her.
Always making things seem like she was part of the problem, not part of the
solution, in which she really was. Never giving her what she wanted. Not
giving thought to birthdays and special occasions. And a host of other
things that would take way to long to write. The reason for writing this, if
anyone is in a relationship, and is acting in anyway like I did, I beg of
you to stop, and think of how much that person means to you, what they
really mean to you. Do you love them for what they do for you, or who they
really are, you see, you can easily mess up the most beautiful thing in the
world by just forgetting what it's really about. A relationship shouldn't be
about anything but the two people involved. Then the other stuff comes in,
but the root is the people, and what they really mean to each other. My
wife, she means everything to me, I now know that. I could care less about
anything we have besides the children, everything mean nothing to me, just
her. I don't want to lose her, and I will fight until the last day of my
life to keep her, if things work out for us, each and every day we spend
together I will try to make it the best for us, for our family. People..I am
trying to tell you, stop being stupid, start thinking about the people who
you are with now...before it's to late. Some of the things we fight over
were petty and stupid, and should of never been even a subject, but, because
of the way I was, they were, and that was my fault. I take full blame for
destroying something that should of been the most beautiful thing in the
world. And now, I am in panic, trying to rebuild it. I know I cannot go back
and fix the 14 years I made wrong, but I can make the rest of our time
together right. I have never been religious, and I am not claiming to be
now, but I do pray to God he will help me, help me change and see what I am
doing wrong, help my to understand more. I want for my wife to be happy, and
for the last selfish act I ever do, I want her to be happy with me. She is
coming home for lunch ( I am off today ) and it will be the bright spot of
my day. I know I can make her happy, it's just if she will give me the
chance to show her I can be the man she fell in love with many years ago. I
guess I just wanted to get this out to the world, so maybe, someone will
wake up, and realize what they can so easily lose...and save it before it
happens. I hope I helped anyone.

====

Listen! It isn't even the words you use that convey this attitude! It's your tone of
voice, your facial expressions, your posture, the speed at which you speak,
everything non-verbal about you will show this attitude far more than words.

This doesn't mean you have to be arrogant, or lack a sense of humor. You can be
warm and friendly at the same time you are being direct and powerful. The key is
finding the balance. Once you do you will not be able to keep women away from you.

I DON'T GET RATTLED BY SETBACKS
BECAUSE I LEARN FROM MY MISTAKES.

The host asked him what the secret of his success was,
and the karate guy looked at him in that wooden way of his and said:
"When I first started out competing in Karate Tournaments, I wasn't that good. I got
beat a lot, but I always learned from my mistakes. Instead of crying over my losing, I
just studied what I would have to do differently the next time, and whenever I met the
same guy again or a different guy in the same situation, I ALWAYS creamed 'em."

Unless you know how to learn from your mistakes and accept and occasional loss,
you will get nowhere. The most successful guys I know at scoring all have two great
strengths: They have the first power attitude we've just looked at, and they also know
how to accept getting rejected without it bothering them and they learn from their
mistakes.

There is one small point you have to get before you can use this exercise. Take a
minute to imagine yourself riding in a roller coaster. See yourself sitting in the front
car, riding up and down.

Now, make another picture of a roller coaster, but this time, do NOT see yourself in
the picture. See it as if you were actually looking out of your own eyes, sitting in the
roller coaster. Ride for a few moments.

Now, which one of those felt more real in your body? I'll bet anything it was the
second kind. An image or goal only appears real to your mind if it comes in the
second form, as if you were seeing it through your own eyes.

THE FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN THE TWO KINDS OF MENTAL PICTURES PEOPLE
MAKE IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST REASON WHY MOST PEOPLE
NEVER REACH THEIR GOALS.

You could imagine yourself acting confident and powerful until you are blue in the
face, but unless you give your mind some cues as to when it is going to tap into those
pictures you will get NOWHERE. You will never tap into all those great resources
you've been imagining.

For ease we are going to call the first kind of picture, where you do see yourself,
picture type 1, and the second kind of picture where you do not see yourself, picture
type 2.

OK. Now that we have made that clear, let's get on to the exercise.

Step One:

Recall a time in your past when you felt confident and powerful. A time where
you fully felt the way you'd like to feel around women. This can be anywhere
and about anything - a great golf shot you made, or an "A" book report you did
in school.

Step Two:

Close your eyes, and see yourself in the first kind of picture, going through that
experience again.

Step Three:

Now, step into the picture, and see the events as if you were actually looking
out from your own eyes. See what you saw, hear what you heard, and feel how
good it felt in your body. When those feelings of confidence and power reach
their peak in your body, reach over with your right hand, and give your left
wrist a squeeze. Run through this twice more, giving the same squeeze in the
same place. This will train your mind to recall those feelings of power and
confidence whenever you squeeze your wrist the way you are doing now.

Step Four:

Think of a situation or circumstance where you would like to be more powerful
with women or more poised or whatever it is you'd like.

Step Five:

Picture it the second way, as if it were going on and you were seeing it through
your own eyes.

Step Six:

As you do so, reach over with your right hand and squeeze your left wrist,
triggering your confidence anchor. This will train your mind to automatically
call up the feelings of confidence and power when you are in a situation like the
one you are seeing through your own eyes. You won't even have to think about
doing it, which is the advantage. (And that's why anchoring works where
"positive thinking" won't, because often by the time you get yourself thinking
positively, it's already too late.)

Now, once you've done this, I want you to do it again, but this time I want you to pick
different circumstances where you'd like to use your "power attitude" that we talked
about in the first chapter. Make one a situation where you see a beautiful woman
you'd like to talk to. Another could be making a pass at a woman back at your place.
Go through the situation with the first kind of picture, seeing yourself in the picture.
Then step into the picture, and go through it, feeling what it would feel like, looking
through your own eyes. Do the same thing for the second "learning from your
mistakes" attitude. See yourself making a mistake, feeling ok about it, and learning
whatever lesson you need so you can do it differently next time. Then step into the
picture and see it through your own eyes.

BELIEVE IT OR NOT,
HOW TO HAVE EVEN MORE CONFIDENCE WITH
WOMEN

A great deal of success and power with women has nothing to do with how you act and
feel about them, but a lot to do with how you act and feel about yourself. What we're
really talking about here is SELF-RESPECT.

Plenty of men who wouldn't take a bit of crap from another guy turn into down right
spineless wimps when it comes to women. Whether they are reliving old dramas with
a mommy they couldn't please as children, or are scared for some other reason, they
put the woman first.

Other guys have a slightly different problem. They may not take any crap from a
woman, but getting laid is SO damn important to them that they lose sight of other
priorities. In a sense in loses all the fun aspects, and gets to be a compulsion.

Guys like this may win the battles, but they are definitely losing the war. Women may
be nice additions to your life, and if you find the right one, you might even chose to
make her part of the center of yours. But a life spent doing nothing but chasing
women is a pretty stupid one.

If that is your problem, then pull yourself up short for a minute, and ask yourself if
you might be missing some of the other pleasures life has to offer. You might be
shocked to learn that a quiet evening at home with a good book can actually be more
stimulating than a boring date with a huge breasted bimbo with a room temperature
I.Q.

So here's a hint for increasing your confidence with women: STOP NEEDING THEM
SO MUCH! And a good way to do that is going out and finding a hobby that you can
really enjoy. Something that gets you AWAY from women.

Not only will this increase your confidence as you are on the prowl, it provides a great
escape for when that special lady you are with puts a bit of stress and strain on your
brain, as they so often will.

Personally, I prefer Big Mouth Bass Fishing. Most women hate even the thought of
some icky, slimy fish flopping all over them, and wouldn't even consider asking to go
along with you. And besides, I enjoy catching something with a big mouth, and being
able to instantly throw it away if I feel like it. Women are not so easy.

Chapter Four

STILL MORE CONFIDENCE AND POWER WITH
WOMEN!

Here is a magic word that will bring you loads of success with women.
It works with all women, but the more beautiful the woman, the better it
works. The word is: NO!

That's right. No! The same word that will keep a puppy from wetting the carpet will
also keep a woman from shitting on you!

You must say no to a woman once in a while, when it is over an issue of importance,
and when you mean it.

No matter how gorgeous, or great in the sack or how otherwise wonderful she may be
(and who else but such a goddess could possibly begin to deserve to be in YOUR
company?) you must be willing to walk away from her if you can't deal with her from a
position of self-respect.

And self-respect, my friend, is mostly a matter of what you say no to. It's a boundary
set by what is not permitted, tolerated or allowed. And while it may be negative from
this semantic sense, in reality it is the most power and positive force you have going
for you. When a woman senses it in you, she knows she's found something she's
instinctively wanted since she realized she's female: A MAN SHE COULD NEVER
HOPE TO CONTROL.

I know this isn't easy. It hurts, really hurts to have to walk away from someone you
really dig because she isn't treating you right. But love can often be like a street
fight, and remember the street fighter's number one rule: Ignore the pain and carry
out your offensive with everything you've got. If you can pull this off, you will walk
with a confidence and power that women of all ages will be able to sense. And more
importantly, you'll like the guy who lives inside your skin.

Chapter Five

YET MORE CONFIDENCE AND POWER WITH
WOMEN

George S. Patton Jr., the hell-for-leather General of World War II fame was once
asked what he thought of his rival, the British Field Marshall Montgomery. Patton
replied, "He's the best General the British have. But he's more interested in not
losing than he is in winning. Unfortunately for many men, that's their attitude toward
women. They walk on egg-shells, cautious as can be, hoping against hope that they
don't make a mistake.

If you want to have DYNAMIC power with women, begin to focus on what you want,
and what you are going to do, not on what you might lose or what's going to happen to
you if you don't win. Of course, give the risks a glance. But don't focus on them.

Focus on what you desire. What will it be like when you're with that woman you want?
What will you see? What will you hear? What will you feel in your body?

These are the kinds of questions that will get you excited about and aimed at winning,
instead of cringing at losing. Even if you know you have some competition you'll be
able to give it your best shot, because your major focus will be on your outcome.

In short:

GLANCE AT WHAT YOU MIGHT HAVE TO LOSE,
BUT FOCUS ON WHAT YOU WANT TO WIN.

Look at it this way: Even the nastiest person finds it hard to react fearfully or angrily
to someone who makes them feel loved and appreciated.

I suggest you make this AS IF principle part of your bag of tricks. The next time you
approach a woman who is making you burst out of your pants with lust, try putting
aside the lust and turning on the warmth.

Conveying warmth and affinity isn't so tough - just think of how you look and sound
when you see a niece or nephew, or even a pet that delights you. No, I am not
suggesting baby talk as a way of scoring babes. I'm trying to give you an example of
where it's natural for you to behave the way I'd like you to try behaving with women.

The important principle to apply here is that THE MEANING OF YOUR
COMMUNICATION IS THE RESPONSE IT GETS. If you use a tone of voice or a
facial expression that makes women fearful or suspicious, then no matter how clever
your words are, the message you convey to her is that she should be afraid and
suspicious of you.

If voice tone and physiology (and again I don't mean your appearance per se, but
rather your posture and facial expressions) are so crucial in how women react to you,
then what is the key to producing voice tone and physiology? Your belief and
expectation about your outcome.

If you believe you are going to get rejected then you are either going to convey fear,
and make her fearful or else you are going to try to beat her to the punch and act so
obnoxious that she rejects you right off, so you don't have to wait too long in
suspense for your negative prediction to come true. You just want to get it over with
quickly so you actually produce the humiliation that you believe you cannot avoid.

By contrast, if you act as if you truly were someone who everyone liked and received
warmly, then that warmth is what your tone and physiology will convey, and that's the
response you will get, nine times out of ten. I'm not saying you'll get laid with
everyone you approach, but seldom will you have a nasty experience either. And any
woman who doesn't respond positively to warmth and affinity is seriously sick and
should be avoided at all costs anyway.

PRACTICE EXERCISE: OK, I know this one is going to SEEM a little silly, but it's
going to help you get laid like CRAZY, so just do it!

Step One:

Remember the words to the pledge of allegiance. In case you don't here they
are: (You may stand and put your hand over your heart if you so choose.)

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the
Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and
justice for all.

Step Two:

Practice, out loud, saying these words with all the warmth and friendliness you
can muster.

Step Three:

Practice saying them out loud as if you thought they were the funniest thing in
the world and you might crack up laughing at any moment.

OK, so you feel a bit silly practicing (and if someone should catch you they may think
you've joined the John Birch Society) and it seems weird. But just remember -

IT ISN'T SO MUCH WHAT YOU SAY TO A WOMAN,
BUT YOUR TONE OF VOICE WHEN YOU SAY IT!!!!

Chapter Seven

GETTING HER ATTENTION
THE KEY TO PICK-UPS WHEREVER YOU ARE

I have a brother who's in advertising - more specifically he writes newspaper and
magazine ad copy. I once watched him at work, and he sat for about three hours and
then wrote one sentence! One sentence!

I asked him why he took so long on one sentence and his answer stuck with me: It's
that first sentence that determines whether they even read the rest of the ad!

Look at meeting women like an ad man who's writing copy for a newspaper ad.
Maybe one out of a hundred readers is actively looking for the product you are trying
to sell, and they will read your whole ad no matter what the headline says.

The rest of the readers could care less. They are busy flipping pages, trying to get to
the comics section or the sports page. They will only stop if something grabs their
attention.

So it is with the average chick. In a few lucky situations, your looks alone will snag
her. But the rest of the time you won't have much chance of selling your product
unless you grab her attention and grab it fast. (I know, you want to grab something
else, but that comes later. Animal.)

Below are some of the best ways to grab a girl's attention. Keep them in mind as you
read the next few chapters.

1.Humor
2.Appealing to her curiosity
3.Putting an unusual or unexpected twist on an old, cliche pick-up
4.Role playing
5.Faking like you already know her
6.Appealing to her ego
7.Showing outrageous balls or guts

Chapter Eight

HOW TO MAKE A WOMAN YOU'VE JUST MET
FEEL LIKE SHE'S MET THE MAN OF HER
DREAMS

The next step after you've got her attention is to introduce yourself and get her
name. I hope you are smart enough to do that without my advice.

Then you've got to create the illusion of rapport. For those of you who don't know
what rapport means, the dictionary defines it as: "Accord, affinity, relations marked
by harmony."

The techniques you use to create rapport will vary according to the type of pick-up
you are using. Of course, we've already gone over the proper way to use your tone of
voice.

Here are two other very sneaky and powerful ways to create rapport with a woman.
You should use them when you're actually on a date as well as when you first meet a
woman. They take some practice to master, but work quite well.

MIRRORING

There once was a very powerful and successful hypnotist by the name of Milton
Erickson. When you are through with this book you may well want to build a shrine to
Erickson, because this man is going to helpyou more than having a million
dollars cash and a body like Scharwtznegger.

Erickson could hypnotize anyone, even the most resistant patient or client. One of the
ways he did this was by mirroring the breathing of the person he was hypnotizing.

Now, I'm going to pause for a minute so you can go through your "Bullshit" reaction.
But mirroring someone's breathing is a very powerful way to make them
unconsciously feel in tune with you. Erickson would watch the rate of his client's
breathing and then begin to match it with his own breathing, or with the pace of his
speaking. Or he'd tap his chest with his hand in time to the persons breathing, and
then begin to gradually slow the tapping. The person's breathing would slow in time to
the tapping!

Mirroring works because your unconscious picks up and is aware of things your
conscious mind has no knowledge of. To convince yourself that this is so, try this
experiment:

1.Get a friend of yours and have them close their eyes. Ask them to keep their
eyes closed, and guess what you are doing.
2.Stand in front of them, and begin speaking. As you do so, sway your head from
side to side.
3.Ask them what you are doing.

Of course, they will be able to tell you you are moving your head back and forth.
Now, ask them how they knew - they'll tell you they could hear the difference in how
you sounded.

Now, try it again, but this time ask them to keep their eyes open. Ask if they can hear
the difference now, and of course they can't? Actually, they CAN hear the difference,
because they still have the same pair of ears - they just aren't CONSCIOUSLY
aware of it. But unconsciously, you bet they are!

In the same way, if you mirror a chick's breathing, or her tone of voice, or rate of
speaking, or even a particular gesture she uses, on a conscious level she won't notice.
If she does notice on a conscious level, then you are being too obvious and she's
either going to think you are a weirdo or are making fun of her, and neither of these
will score you points.

But if you do it subtly, then all she will know is that for some odd reason she sure
seems to feel right down comfortable with you, old buddy, as if she's loved you for
years!

Appendix One

THE ULTIMATE RULES AND ATTITUDES
FOR SUCCESS WITH WOMEN

Note: These attitudes and rules are the foundation of everything in this
book, and the key to your success with women. To make them work for
you, you must practice them, both in your imagination and real life! Write
them down on three by five index cards, and visualize yourself putting
them into action.

Attitude/Rule One:

I MAKE NO EXCUSES FOR MY DESIRES AS A MAN.
I MOVE THROUGH THE WORLD WITHOUT APOLOGY.

Attitude/Rule Two:

I DON'T NEED YOU-YOU NEED ME.

Attitude/Rule Three:

YOU CAN'T CONTROL ME.

Attitude/Rule Four:

I NEVER KNOW WHERE I STAND WITH A WOMAN UNTIL I MAKE
THAT FIRST SERIOUS PASS, SO I DON'T CONSIDER A WOMAN
A SERIOUS PROSPECT UNTIL AFTER WE'VE MADE LOVE.

Attitude/Rule Five:

THE FIRST STEP IN ATTRACTING A WOMAN
IS GETTING HER ATTENTION, AND THE BEST WAY TO DO
THAT IS BY BEING UNIQUE, AND NOVEL, AND DIFFERENT.

Attitude/Rule Six:

I DON'T ARGUE WITH A WOMAN AND NEITHER DO I
ATTEMPT TO APPEASE HER. I LISTEN CAREFULLY TO WHAT
SHE HAS TO SAY, BUT GENTLY AND FIRMLY DO AS
I HAD PLANNED ALL ALONG.

Attitude/Rule Seven:

THERE IS NO WOMAN SO BEAUTIFUL THAT I CAN'T MAKE HER MINE.

Attitude/Rule Eight:

A "5" IN YOUR BED BEATS A "10" IN YOUR HEAD,
BUT A "10" IN YOUR BED, BEATS A HUNDRED "5's" IN YOUR HEAD!

Attitude/Rule Nine:

NEVER GET SERIOUSLY INVOLVED
WITH A WOMAN WHO HAS MORE PROBLEMS THAN YOU DO.

Attitude/Rule Ten:

PERSISTENCE WITHOUT FLEXIBILITY IS A PRESCRIPTION~
FOR DISASTER. VARY YOUR APPROACH AND STYLE TO
DISCOVER WHAT WORKS THE BEST.

====

Came acrosss this, not sure of the source but it has some nice
touches.

"The positive side of life"

Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include a free trip
around the sun every year.

How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're
on.

Birthdays are good for you; the more you have, the longer you live.

Happiness comes through doors you didn't even know you left open.

Ever notice that the people who are late are often much jollier
than the people who have to wait for them?

Most of us go to our grave with our music still inside of us.

If Wal-Mart is lowering prices every day, how come nothing is free
yet?

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be
the world to one person.

Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once.

Don't cry because it's over; smile because it happened.

A truly happy person is one who
can enjoy the scenery on a detour.

====
========
My life would be much better if I had more self-confidence. How do I gain
self-confidence (that is without drinking two liters of vodka!)? There must be
some behavioural technique out there that teaches one how to be more assertive
and courageous.
I was at a meeting for a job interview a few days ago and I came out as meek
and fearful instead of strong and bold. You know it's not only the outward
image that matters here, but also the feeling that I make so little impact on
people when I meet with them makes me loath myself.

========
...confidence can only be gained through actions and it must involve
other people....it's about taking risks...whether it's raping a woman,
chopping up the old man down the street into little pieces, whipping
cops the finger, flicking pennies at bouncers, spitting on the judge,
pissing off your porch onto people's heads below, throwing feces at
the pope, ....you get the idea. Start with baby steps...like asking a
girl for a date, talking in front of groups and standing up for
yourself.

On 21 May 2003 20:21:35 GMT, amarcus@grex.org (amarcus) wrote:

>My life would be much better if I had more self-confidence. How do I gain
>self-confidence (that is without drinking two liters of vodka!)? There must be
>some behavioural technique out there that teaches one how to be more assertive
>and courageous.
>I was at a meeting for a job interview a few days ago and I came out as meek
>and fearful instead of strong and bold. You know it's not only the outward
>image that matters here, but also the feeling that I make so little impact on
>people when I meet with them makes me loath myself.
>

========
> From: gnik regrub
>...confidence can only be gained through actions and it must involve
>other people....it's about taking risks...whether it's raping a woman,
>chopping up the old man down the street into little pieces, whipping
>cops the finger, flicking pennies at bouncers, spitting on the judge,
>pissing off your porch onto people's heads below, throwing feces at
>the pope, ....you get the idea. Start with baby steps...like asking a
>girl for a date, talking in front of groups and standing up for
>yourself.

Er... I wouldn't go as far as throwing feces on the pope, especially not now
that he's dying, but I get your drift.

========
amarcus said:
>
> My life would be much better if I had more self-confidence. How do I gain
> self-confidence (that is without drinking two liters of vodka!)? There must be
> some behavioural technique out there that teaches one how to be more assertive
> and courageous.
> I was at a meeting for a job interview a few days ago and I came out as meek
> and fearful instead of strong and bold. You know it's not only the outward
> image that matters here, but also the feeling that I make so little impact on
> people when I meet with them makes me loath myself.
>
Get a self-help book on it (there are millions). You can even download a
book on it from Kazaa as an e-book.

--
Regards,
.

========
> From: . <293847520938@yahoo.co.uk>
>Get a self-help book on it (there are millions). You can even download a
>book on it from Kazaa as an e-book.
>Regards,

I have kazaa lite. Do you recall the name of a book I could download from there?

========
amarcus said:
> I have kazaa lite. Do you recall the name of a book I could download from there?
>
>
Actually (this is a plug now) might I suggest Shareaza for all your
pr0n, ebook and music needs. It's an excellent program - far, far
superior to Kazaa.

I've started reading a bit on "How to stop worrying and start living".
It's downloadable from Shareaza.

Also the book (which I've been unable to find online), "The Consolations
of Philosophy". This book is like applied philosophy. I highly recommend
it, even if you don't have problems, since it gives you some insight
into the ideas of some famous philosophers, in a very easy-to-read
language style.

Finally, medication (SSRIs) is also an option. SSRIs gave me a self-
esteem boost that changed the way I interacted with people, which in
turn changed the way people interacted with me, resulting in an
improvement in life, and then natural self-esteem can start to flourish.
The problem of having low self-esteem is that it's self-defeating (as
you've already articulated). SSRIs are a quick fix for that. I don't
necessary condone the use, however I can say they worked very well for
me, especially since my self-esteem issues were particularly crippling.

Whatever your chosen path, know that eventually you will come out
confident - I thought I would always be a person who lacked self-esteem.
I never thought I'd be psychologically where I am today.

In essence, don't give up - many people have been through, and come out
of, the same problem.

Good luck.

--
Regards,
.

========
amarcus said:
> I have kazaa lite. Do you recall the name of a book I could download from there?
>
Oh, one other thing. If you do go on an SSRI, make sure when it kicks in
you start working on the way you think. It should come naturally, but
give it a little push anyway - start talking to the check-out chick
("how has your day been"). Maybe start with a check-out guy, or a check-
out chick who you're not particularly attracted to. As the other poster
said, baby steps.

You could do this with or without medication.

--
Regards,
.

========
I suggest toastmasters. It got me out of my shell.

"amarcus" wrote in message news:hnnujf3445678@qsd.org...
> > From: . <293847520938@yahoo.co.uk>
> >Get a self-help book on it (there are millions). You can even download a
> >book on it from Kazaa as an e-book.
> >Regards,
>
> I have kazaa lite. Do you recall the name of a book I could download from
there?

2004-02-08T11:56:00.000-08:00

Small talk is a learned skill. It takes practice.
----
No matter how hard you try sometimes you just don't belong. And I'm slowly
giving up hope. As I type this a valentines day ad is on the radio. Sigh
----
Maybe you should try joining a volunteer group of some sort. Check local
events or free things going on at local churches or schools. I know being
shy hinders this but you have to make an effort.
----
If you're not doing this already, ask questions of people. Be curious
about them. People love to talk about themselves.

And when you want to get to know someone try to avoid asking generic,
stock questions ("where are you from?", etc.) Instead, observe them
for a bit and come up with something unique to them that you're
genuinely curious about. Maybe it's the way they dress. Maybe it's
their job. It could be anything.

There's that thing Gore Vidal once said. "To be *interesting*, you
have to be *interested*." And it's true.

Most of us like to think we're interesting. When you engage someone
in conversation, treat them like they are. Be curious about them in
the way that you'd like people to be curious about you. Don't worry
so much about what YOU have to say for yourself. Just get THEM
talking. And if you can do that, at some point they will be
interested in you.

Just don't be, ya know, a stalker or anything. And don't be
judgemental.

And keep a positive attitude.
----

2004-02-05T15:17:00.000-08:00

I am a 29 years old and still live at home with my parents and work for them at their business. I dropped out of college 10 years ago. I am fairly smart and good looking yet I never date, and am going nowhere in my life. I am sure that I am capable of doing so much better but something is holding me back. My best friends who used to once look up to me, are now doing so much better. One of them is actually 3 years younger and he has a house, wife and a kid on the way. I don't know why but I have such a feeling of resent towards them. I have lived in a different state for nearly 8 years and they visit every year. Likewise, every year I visit my hometown and this summer I am afraid to face them and their kids. I admit I am sociophobic. Lord help me I wish I could break out of the situation I am from. I am not
suicidal and don't (usually) hate myself. In fact I love myself, I know I am capable of doing so much better, even my friends know it. I know this is why they still have some respect for me. Please tell me if there is anyone out there who feels even remotely like this? I am so lonely...
----
Not everyone fits within the same 'box' in which you live a 'normal' life. You have to be somewhat selfish and live for yourself, and being content with who you really are. Be happy being yourself, find out who you are. And you will have people liking you for who you are. Enjoy the things that you do - and you'll have friends there. Everyone has problems with 'life' and 'living'.
----

Absolutely. No one owns the patent on living-life-with-
complete-ease. As hard as it may seem, the best "remedy"
for the social phobics is to "just do it" - get out there and
expose yourself to social situations. It's not the situations
that are causing anxiety, but one's own thoughts. I know
this from personal experience because many many years
ago I was socially phobic to a degree

I think that part of the social phobic is his fear of being
judged. I can assure you that 99.99 per cent of the
world doesn't really care about you in a way you think
they do. They don't care if you stole a candy bar from
a store 3 years ago. They don't care that you have a
technical diploma rather than an MBA They don't
care that you are 30 and unmarried and without kids.
They don't care about the scar on your lip that you
think makes you so hideous.

Furthermore, you are no "better" and no "worse"
than anybody else. You are just a little dot in this
humongous universe.

As hard as it is, I think that it would be worthwhile
acting and behaving as if you believed in yourself,
even if it doesn't come naturally at first. Even if you
are feeling dissatisfied with your present life(style), act
as if you are doing very well, (in fact, things could
definitely be *much* worse). Set little goals for
yourself and meet them, because every time you
meet your own little expectations, you will feel a
little better about yourself.

One of the happiest people I know is a man who
became quadriplegic some 9 years ago after a
motor vehicle accident. He still works at his job
using IBM voice technology on the computer, he
commutes with a specially equipped wheelchair,
operating it by breathing into a tube. Other than that, he receives
total care by other people for every activity of daily
living - from feeding to going to the bathroom. This is
a man who used to pride himself on his so-called
independence, "I can do it myself" attitude. He finds
small victories in the little things in life and focusses on
these little "accomplishments", including writing a book
about his accident and aftermath.

OTOH, if you truly believe it's your "lot in life" to be
unhappy, your energy will be expended in maintaining
this faulty belief system that you have.

And it doesn't have to be that way.