DonExist

'Rocky Balboa' is about everybody who feels they want to participate in the race of life, rather than be a bystander," Stallone said in a statement.
"You're never too old to climb a mountain, if that's your desire."

Brian Tracy - The psychology of achievement

* We become what we think about

* Everything we are now are the total result of what we thought to this period

* Everything we are and will become will be the result of the content of our minds

* The law of belief: whatever we believe becomes our reality; if we want to change our reality we must change the belief about ourselves

* Whatever we expect with confidence becomes our sef-fulfilling prophesy; we must expect the best for ourserves and the best from each situation - positive self expectancy; No fear

* We attract int our lives the people and cicumstances that harmonize with our dominant thoughts - we must change thinking - thought are like electromagnetics that radiate and attract pople and circumstances that harmonize with them

* Consentration: whatever you dwell in your conscious mind, it grows in your experience; toughts are fertilized by continuous concentration

* Substitution: Mind can hold only one word at a time: positive or negative (positive events - positive circumstances) Purposedly plants flowers so we do not get weeds. Will occupy with worries, uncertanties, etc unless we plant other things.

* A thought and feeling must be mixed

* Repetition law: we have to first learn the skill and then practice it, over and over again: achevement, forward

* Relaxation: More excert on the worse! the harder we do not try the faster our minds change... the nmore we relax and think things will come to our lives ehen we are ready for them... DUE TIME. Relax, confidently belive, concentrate.


----

Roy: Ladies and gentlemen, no suggestion, no behavior is lasting unless
you feed it. (It's that) simple. You are the sum total
of what you've wrongly experienced (and) therefore you have conflict.
Therefore the only "self' you've ever known is (the self born) out of
conflict. So, you're a glutton for punishment...a glutton for
submission...you're looking for trouble...(and) you need to be upset
(in order) to function. I get it...but do you get it? So therefore you
feel like you're going to die when you stop being upset. You may even
feel like you're going to be a doormat if you don't stand up for
yourself with anger. (But) no, (it's not true), you have to be a (calm
and patient) rock. The underpinning of your life has to be from
within...the rock is within you.

The person who builds his house on the sand ( is he who seeks) the
approval of the world...trying to get along...or (just the opposite)
doing unto others what was done to you...hurting them before they hurt
you. I get it. (But) no, (that's not the way to lasting peace and
happiness). You have to be apart from that. (You have to be) in the
world, (but) not of it. (So) how do you get there? That caller was a
perfectly good lady...she wanted to do the right thing but she brought
her baggage (into the relationship with her husband)...and she's
projecting it on to her husband...that was the last thing she
said...right Lisa? I hope she's still listening. (She's) a good woman
but she's got to be, pardon the expression, gooder (still).

"Solo" wrote in message
news:2_tIf.76655$_D1.66227@trnddc03...
> How does someone come to terms with being alone?

After awhile you just get used to it. I'm 47 and have spent most
of my life alone. I am an only child, spent most of my childhood
alone, and probably got used to it at an early age. I grew up in
the military, where you constantly loose friends, and you either
learn how to keep making new ones or you stop trying as you
keep loosing them. I stopped trying as I hated loosing them.


> I no longer want to try to make people like me.

You can't make people like you, all you can do is be yourself and
hope they like you for who you are.


> The older I get, the more socially inept I become.

Your not alone, I'm the most socially inept person I know.


>At 30 years of age, I have never made a true friend,

Neither have I, although I have had alot of what I call activity
partners. People who like to do one or two things that I like
to do, but we spent no time together other then during those
times.


> never been on a date, and most women either don't want
> anything to do with me, or they are nice to me for about a
> week and then treat me like shit all over again.

I have never been on a date either. I was married once and had
a girlfriend for a few years, but I met both of those through other
people. We never really dated, we just spent time with the other
people and then started spending time together away from them.
I never actually asked either of them out on a date.


>It really hurts, and is very confusing.

Yes, it is.


> I've had it. I want to let go, but I don't know how.

I went through that for a long time and one day it dawned on me
that my married co-workers are always complaining about being
married. The wife will not let them do some things and insist that
they do other things that they don't want to do. They can't spend
their money on anything they want to as wife their won't let them.
I am not talking about guys who waste money on junk they don't
need, just guys who want to spend a little on their hobbies.

I like being able to do whatever I want and spending my money
on anything that I want to. I took up learning to play the guitar,
as a hobby, about eight months ago. I read several online guitar
forums and have seen many men complain about having to play
an old guitar because their wife refuses to let them buy a new
one, as they think it is a waste of money.

I bought seven of them, in the last eight months, just because I
liked them, can easily afford them, and I don't have to listen to
anyone gripe about it. I had enough of that when I was married,
only in those days it was computer equipment she was griping
about. My ex-wife hated me spending money on computers,
but it led to my current career as a computer technician. The
man she left me for barely makes more then minimum wage,
and she does not like that as she makes more then he does.

My ex-girlfriend hated me spending money on anything that did
not benefit her, but she was a gold-digger, and I made 90% of
the money so I did not care what she thought. She now lives in
poverty as she is convinced that a man should support her and
she refuses to learn how to support herself.

I am not saying that all women are like that as I have known men
whose wives let them spend money on anything they want as long
as the bills are paid. Women are like men, there are good ones,
and there are bad ones. Now I live alone and being alone does
have it's disadvantages, but it also has it's advantages.


> When I was was 24, it took 6-12 months before a girl would
> get sick of me. Nowadays, they seem to hate me on sight, or like me at
> first, and then HATE me as time goes on.

Not knowing you, or them, I can't say much about that. I used
to think that women hated me, but I have come to realize that I
was looking at women that I thought were the right one for me,
and not realizing that I was not the right one for them.


> Then they'll like me for a little while, and then shit all over me
> again.

In what ways are they shitting all over you?


> I'm suffering from anxiety and depression over this shit, and I
> want to put it behind me.

I know how you feel as I was depressed over it for a long time,
but I finally put it behind me. I would still like to meet a woman
who is right for me, and me for her, but I do not get depressed
about it anymore.


> I don't care if I die without a woman even touching me, I just
> want to stop pining over it.

That takes time and it won't happen overnight.


> I want to be like how I was when I was 21, when I barely paid
> attention to women to the point that it scared me.

Why would not paying attention to women scare you?

// posted by Me @ 4:34 PM (0) comments

Oh, I don't know. Loneliness is not an automatic feature of being single.
The loneliest I've ever been in my life was when I was in a relationship
with someone who did not understand me. And that kind of loneliness is
much harder to fix.

Oh, and being single does not mean working on Thanksgiving. This
Thanksgiving, I'm pursuing the following program:
1) go to a good bookstore, pick out some interesting stuff;
2) go to a very fancy restaurant and stuff myself while reading the
interesting stuff picked out in 1)
3) go to a movie

And yes, all of the above is done alone. Dining alone in a restaurant
might raise a few eyebrows, but it has its advantages. As does going to a
movie alone.

-----

Oh, I don't know. Loneliness is not an automatic feature of being single.
The loneliest I've ever been in my life was when I was in a relationship
with someone who did not understand me. And that kind of loneliness is
much harder to fix.

Oh, and being single does not mean working on Thanksgiving. This
Thanksgiving, I'm pursuing the following program:
1) go to a good bookstore, pick out some interesting stuff;
2) go to a very fancy restaurant and stuff myself while reading the
interesting stuff picked out in 1)
3) go to a movie

And yes, all of the above is done alone. Dining alone in a restaurant
might raise a few eyebrows, but it has its advantages. As does going to a
movie alone.

-----

Oh, I don't know. Loneliness is not an automatic feature of being single.
The loneliest I've ever been in my life was when I was in a relationship
with someone who did not understand me. And that kind of loneliness is
much harder to fix.

Oh, and being single does not mean working on Thanksgiving. This
Thanksgiving, I'm pursuing the following program:
1) go to a good bookstore, pick out some interesting stuff;
2) go to a very fancy restaurant and stuff myself while reading the
interesting stuff picked out in 1)
3) go to a movie

And yes, all of the above is done alone. Dining alone in a restaurant
might raise a few eyebrows, but it has its advantages. As does going to a
movie alone.

-----

I don't know that singleness is prized, but I do find myself
appreciating my freedom more and more as I get older. When I was
younger, I had an emotional void to fill and thought I needed to get
married to be made whole. What I finally discovered is that if I could
find a minimum monthly dose of affirmation from a few female
acquaintances, then marriage suddenly seemed like a burdensome
entanglement.

Look for ways to interact with men without thinking about marriage (or
analogous "Relationship"). Be creative. See if you can have your needs
met through various types of acquaintances and friendships. Once you
stop looking for the one perfect man to share your whole life, your eyes
will be opened to the many not-quite-perfect men who can each compliment
some aspect of your life.

I'm sorry you're hurting :(

Try to make as many friends as you can. It will help to be around
people (positive people), and each can offer a little bit of emphatu,
hope and satisfaction. As you get better and when you're ready, one of
them may grow into a relationship, you never know.

Couple of years is a guideline, for some people it goes faster, for
others slower. Concentrate on getting to know yourself. Time will pass
no matter what you do. Make good use of it.
And when you need to, let yourself grieve.

---

Time and again, research has demonstrated the power of an individual's self-fulfilling prophecies - if you envision yourself tripping as you walk across a stage, you will be more likely to stumble and fall. New evidence suggests that previous studies have underestimated not only the effect of our own negative prophecies, but also the power of others' false beliefs in promoting negative outcomes.

----

Most people have a way of looking at things that happen in their lives through the lens of their own expectations.

They look for ways of fulfilling those expectations, often ignoring large segments of life that do not.

When A person focuses on finding the negative - has negative expectations - expects the worst - they will find ways of Seeing that which they project out there. So also when a person expects the best - thay look for that and often ignore the "bad " and instead focus on the good.

How do we get off the wheel - the continuing cycles we actually create by our expectations ?

Well there is a method, but some think it too colorless, it's called living in the Now. But you see - no expectations - no hope for a better, because there's no comparisons; no fear or anxieties for the worse either. Some would have more in their life and feel the need for hope and fear and expectations - they have never tried living in the Now and do not See how much more is then open to be Seen. Without our expectations we get to See what Is - and that is wonderful varied and more than one could ever "expect".

----

I totally agree with you Oldwolf.
I have come to a juncture in my life- that emphasizes the illusions of 'expectations'--they allways nearly dissapoint you. Instead of living in the Moment-the Now -and finding joy in the spontaneous magick that you can create through positivity and always something to hold as 'sacred...in that moment...and the next moment--ad infinitum.
Allowing relationships and people to flow and be spontaneous--fosters imagination...a joyous surprising newness...unpredictable aliveness!!
A yogi once said--No Complaints..when you look at a cloud-do you complain about it? When you look at a butterfly do you have a complaint? a blade of grass, a tree, a flower? Only human beings complain. Only human beings have expectations..I would conjecture that the rest of Nature does not.
Best not to place expectations other than a 'loving outcome-a peaceful resolve-and a creative rush--inspiration--self-realization-Compassion."
Inner contracts, of this sort, I know work...regardless of the Chaos and oppression.
Its all Good!
Peace
LionHeart

----

One thing I've learned as I've gotten older and more experienced
is that everything is complicated and nuanced and has shades
and subtleties, and the only way to deal with it is to
recognize that nothing is going to be perfect and you do the
best you can from what you know and understand.

----

With good reason, people are chary of going along too fast,
of assuming too much, of hoping beyond hope for the actual
manifestation of all their dreams and yearnings. To do
things like that invites a high-speed crash into some solid
object, perhaps, or a sudden drowning by unfamiliarity.

----

If I've learned anything (there's no evidence I have) from a
long life, it's that the surest route to great reward is
unlimited giving. It's abundantly clear that the well of
love is infinitely deep; the more you draw from it, there
more there will be to nourish you and those who find relief
or refreshment or sustenance from the result. Besides,
Fortune can toss us into the abyss at a moment's notice, so
the only sensible course, I would say, is to go for it
*all*, every single second.

you are all so Kind in your responses today...I got through it well. Many
thanks to you all.

I did indeed say, Pamela, that the Y is right next door. I am looking into
volunteerism with Habitat for Humanity. That is not only a great way to give
back, and help build/repair a home for the needy..but a good way to meet
like minded people. The Y is strictly for exercize right now, it is a good
place, bright, and positive. that falls right into what I said earlier,
about helping others ease their pain, so as to help releave your pain too.

I hear what you are saying, troy...Though the breakup of an engagement is no
where near the breakup of a marriage in terms of the magnitude of the
situation, your emotions are just as real. My 21 year old son got caught up
with a very agressive girl, that ended up being screwed up on many fronts.
He did not know how to handle the emotions,,,long story, but he has risen
above it, as I am rising above my situation, and how you will rise above
yours.

I know feeling undesired by the opposite sex is indeed frustrating. But I
thing it is all in your head. That "woe is me" feeling is natural. You just
shouldn't try very hard... Love can be found in the most unusual of places.
Once you feel better about yourself, it will show onto others..confidence is
the key. The ladies need to see this from you. You could be one handsome
devil, but showing little confidence, will be a big turn off... Body
language can do this... Put the frowns away, walk with a spring in your
step...Make eye contact, smile, be kind, but not overbearing.

Find a YMCA near you, and start working out. It is good for your well being,
and your outlook on life, as well as for physical fitness. It gets the
endorphines flowing in your brain, and you'll get your energy back. In fact,
that is what lifted my spirits today, working out... and then taking a nice
drive in my "Muscle Car"..

A good nights sleep is essential. While anti-depressants are sometimes
necessary, I have found that a good nights sleep is essential. If you toss
and turn, with racing thoughts, you are never going to feel good the next
day. I use Melatonin to help me fall asleep..It works wonders. It can't hurt
to try it. You can find it at your drugstore or vitamin store.

Myself, I am still married, not sure what to do next...I do not have the
"mettle" to go file papers...I still feel responsible for her, since she has
no motivation to get a job, etc.. I am trying the tough love approach, but I
need to take care of myself first. Which is what you need to do too.

I hope I gave something back to you all. Thanks for helping out, it ended up
being a pretty good day after all.

I am happy with who I am , Dave.. I have identified many of my faults, and
have made progress in repairing them.

I think it is in everyone's list of faults to procrastinate. I find that
usually is a result of a lack of motivation, particularly to doing things we
don't like. You are not alone...Of course, that can piss off a spouse big
time, putting off things you could do today, for another day.

This may sound off topic...But I find the easy fix to many of our ills, is a
good nights sleep. Get up early, have a nice breakfast, and you're
energetic. You'll find you have the most motivation after a good nights
sleep.

can't sleep? try melatonin... A dietiary supplement, Melatonin is a chemical
that originates from our brain normally provides (from the pineal gland). It
helps to regulate sleep cycles.

One of my issues has been depression.. for many of my adult years..).Seems I
was fine though until I got married and got bogged down with
responsibilities). I now realize that many of my problems stem from poor
sleep habits.

Diet and exercize is also essential......Excercize is the biggest... three
times a week, for at least 1 hour a day.

Being of sound mind and body, you can usually deal with many things that
come your way, and procrastination is less of an issue if you're of well
being, and thus motivated, and full of energy.

And lastly, find and do things you like. Do not deprive yourself of things
that light you up..I have done just that for so long...and put all my energy
into trying to save a marriage that now is doomed to failure. I have said it
before...."Take good care of yourself".

Anonymous said... Hey man.. I know it's hard, but you have to lighten up.. I've been there. I'm 25 years old and 2 inches shorter than you. It sucks. It's not fair, but if you keep allowing yourself to be depressed and cynical you will only find yourself more and more distant from other people.

A few "hints" from my own experiences:

Some women only will date taller men. That is their loss. Don't be bitter. Just move on. If you have negative thoughts tell yourself (internally) to shut the fuck up.

Your thoughts and your mood are not only inside you. Others can (to some degree) see them. Nobody wants to be around someone that is miserable. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Most people want to be around others that are happy. (If you happen to meet someone that prefers being around misery, run!)

I know it's a catch-22. You can't be happy or even imagine being happy when you get really depressed, but you've got to realize just how much more attractive you'll seem to others when you are happy.

Realize that women (and men) are driven by emotions. Man is not a rational creature. Words mean nothing. A lot of women dislike men or say they are uninterested at first and then end up in relationships with them. You are never selling yourself to a person. You are selling feelings. If you make someone feel good they will want to be around you. Understanding this is worth more than a couple inches.

As a note on that, do not forget to keep some sexual feelings in the mix. Otherwise you can end up with a lot of close female friends and very few lovers.

Don't forget to smile. When you walk down the road and see an attractive woman approaching look her in the eyes. As soon as she looks at you smile and do not look away. She may not even understand why but if she is an average healthy person in a decent mood she will usually smile back at you. I wouldn't recommend having expectations from something like that, but it's something that hopefully can help improve your self esteem.

You will not meet anyone if you don't leave your apartment. You have to get yourself out into the mix. Get some hobbies, join some groups/organizations. Talk to as many people as possible. Not just women. Making friends with men helps you meet women. It's great that you don't have a problem asking people out. Don't be so hurt for rejection though. You've just got to move on.

Also, for your own good and the good of everyone around you drop the suicide thoughts. Suicide is an addiction. It's easy to get trapped into a reality, but it's best you take control and put yourself in a much more optimistic reality. Remember, your whole world can change in a day. Change can happen very quickly.

I feel for you man. I know it's hard, but you've got to realize that you are the only one who will probably change things. Never wait for anything or anyone. The older you get the faster time will move if you allow yourself to wait. You can't rely on others to help you. Stay optimistic, smile, learn to flirt, and I'm certain you'll see changes in how women react to you. Hopefully you will be surprised by just how easy it is and how quickly your current pessimistic emotions can dissolve away.

But trust that there's more to clicking with people and "sharing love"
than any of that. You make perfect sense here. If you say just that -
"I want to let you know that you're not alone" - to the right person at
the right time, it might be all you and they need.

Someone from this group said that recently to me in an email, and it
meant a lot to me.

=======

==================
I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing happened and
some people told me she liked me; I learned from her she had a
boyfriend.
How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
know both sides of the coin.


==================
Trent Olson wrote:
: I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
: now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
: actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
: said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing happened and
: some people told me she liked me; I learned from her she had a
: boyfriend.
: How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
: this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
: in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
: know both sides of the coin.

Why jump to getting married so sudden?

Why not find out how to meet someone who has common interests and see
where it goes from there?

Sheesh... my dad is purely happy with his mate. They are in their 70's and
see no reason to be married. They're together because they care for
each other. Same with me. Neither me nor my S.O. have any desire
to mess up a good thing.

But beyond that, simply search (I know it's not easy) for someone who simply
likes similar things you do? The rest will come naturally if it is to
happen.

b.



==================

"Trent Olson" wrote in message
news:02ecr0d57ups7fpig731eqb2measff3g7a@4ax.com...
> I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
> now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
> actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
> said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing happened and
> some people told me she liked me; I learned from her she had a
> boyfriend.
> How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
> this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
> in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
> know both sides of the coin.



Yeah, all of us were, dude - it sounds like high school.

You either forgot that devastating sense of confusion and fear that occurs
when you have to put yourself on the line emotionally, or thought that since
you grew up it would not be the same this time.

We are all 16 again when it comes to forging a new relationship. Did you
feel any differently back then trying to figure out who liked you and what
to do about it? Of course, some of us never had trouble at 16 getting
whomever we wanted and that skill likely serves them well later in life :0)





==================
"Trent Olson" wrote...
| I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
| now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
| actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
| said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing
| happened and some people told me she liked me; I learned from
| her she had a boyfriend.
| How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
| this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
| in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
| know both sides of the coin.

Its been said, and IME, dead on, that you'll find someone to be
with when you least expect it - not that you can't have hopes - but
its when you're not desperate and try to hard. It doesn't require a
hard sell. IOW, be yourself, enjoy life, and find things to do that
bring you into contact with others of like interests, and invariably,
you'll run into someone or someone find you. [R]




==================
Trent Olson wrote:

>I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
>now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
>actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
>said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing happened and
>some people told me she liked me; I learned from her she had a
>boyfriend.
>How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
>this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
>in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
>know both sides of the coin.

You are exhibiting a high DQ.

DQ stands for Desperation Quotient.

The opposite sex can tell. It turns them off.

Stop worrying about it.

Be your own person. Live your life. Be happy. If marriage comes, it
comes.



==================
Trent Olson said

> I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
> now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
> actually feels I will never will get married.

You feel anxious because you're putting way too much pressure on you
and whoever you meet. You have to stop "looking for a wife". There's
no reason to be anxious when meeting females - just relax and enjoy the
conversation.

I think you're trying way too hard to make "something happen". Most
women you meet are *not* going to be someone you'd want to marry.
They might turn out to be really good friends though, and that's a
great thing in itself.

> How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
> this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
> in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
> know both sides of the coin.

The worst thing you can do is to rush into a relationship. It takes
time to figure out how you feel about them and about yourself as well.

You know, the best thing you could do is to tell yourself you may never
end up married - you have to reach the point of being comfortable with
the idea of being single - possibly forever. It's a lot easier to meet
someone new when there's no expectations of what might happen. Just be
yourself.




Casey


==================
Trent,

Don't ever get married, that is my advice. That's not said out of
bitterness, an anti-women stance, or anything like that. Just common sense!!

Marriage has had its day, for men and women. Self-imprisonment, for no good
reason, is what it is. It does absolutely nothing to add to the quality or
meaning of a relationship. It just ties two people together with shackles
they don't need, shrouded under the mask of economic security.

--
Mark

"Trent Olson" wrote in message
news:02ecr0d57ups7fpig731eqb2measff3g7a@4ax.com...
>I don't know when I will find that person to marry to. As for right
> now, I feel anxious when meeting females and it looks like and
> actually feels I will never will get married. A few minutes ago I
> said good-bye to an ackaintance of mine with whom nothing happened and
> some people told me she liked me; I learned from her she had a
> boyfriend.
> How many times one has to deal with this? were any of your guys in
> this situation before you got married? any words of advice? I guess
> in a group like this I could find more to the ground answers and you
> know both sides of the coin.




==================
Do what i did.....use on-line dating. I used yahoo personals and lucked
up and i am currently seeing someone. It has its advantages ...u get to
know their background, history, interest, religion, and most of all
what they look like. I would not be solely dependent on it but treat it
as another avenue. Anything that increase odds help. Im 34 m got out of
a marriage of 5 years. The marriage i was in sucked big time "WHY"
because i settled. Now that i met someone off yahoo personals i feel
great we have a lot in common. I am attracted to her not like my first
marriage when i thought my wife was unattractive. This girl im with now
has the ideal personality just perfect for me not like my first marriage
when i was married to chatter mouth that wouldn't shut the hell up. just
don't marry for the wrong reasons i did. Now im seeing someone else we
get along great. I would at least try yahoo personals. Anything that
increase odds will definate help you out. I would try yahoo personals or
match.com.

// posted by Me @ 3:12 PM (0) comments

The problem is not American women, but rather women in America. This is an
important distinction. America has a cultural milieu and legal system that
strongly encourages bad female behavior. Any intelligent young woman will
likely figure this out within a couple of years of arriving. She will exist
inside a “closed” system thoroughly tolerant of divorce and populated with
obsequious men. Women are psychologically flexible. When in Rome, they do as
the Romans. The younger they are, the more likely they will conform to
American behavioral patterns.

MY EXPERIENCE
I am 36 years old. Like NiceGuy, by my mid-twenties I concluded that
American women were virtually incompatible with what I was looking for. I
found them politicized, grasping, spoiled, capricious and disloyal.

I set about trying to find a Japanese woman in 1994. I placed a personals ad
in a newsletter of sorts targeting Japanese Women interested in western men.
My first and most interesting response was not from a Japanese woman, but
rather from a Chinese Indonesian woman. She was not living in Indonesia at
the time, but rather attending college at Hawaii Pacific University (HPU) in
Honolulu. We wrote back and forth for a few months. She seemed a bit pushy
(which I didn't like) and because of some unrelated things, I lost touch
with her after the spring of 1995. In November 1995, out of the blue, she
wrote saying she would be visiting my west coast city the following month
and could I show her around? Of course, being a nice guy and also curious, I
agreed. I even took off work to pick her up at the airport.

When she arrived, she of course had her charm on full throttle. No surprise
then that we got along well and on the third or fourth night of her visit,
slept together. She returned to Hawaii for a stopover before returning to
Indonesia. She invited me to join her in Hawaii in January 1996 prior to her
leaving for Indonesia. On very short notice (a few days), I agreed. What
followed turned out to be five of the best days of my life on Oahu and Maui.
We parted company. I returned to my west coast city; she left for Indonesia
a few days later. I now had the long distance relationship I really wasn’t
prepared for. We faxed, called (can you say $400 phone bills?), e-mailed,
sent Hi8 videos, etc. That September I visited her on the island of Bali,
where she was working for Club Med. Two weeks at Club Med Bali: tough, eh?
Again, those were some of the best days of my life. I invited her to stay
with me at my townhouse in January after her contract at Club Med was over.
She spent Jan and Feb of 1997 with me. I think she was hoping I would ask
her to marry her then, but I was just unsure of my feelings. I deliberately
tried to make things as normal and unexciting as possible to see how we
could get along when not in “vacation mode.” She behaved well, but near the
end got whiny, I think because she was hoping I would propose. She left for
Indonesia and once back started pressuring me a bit to get married. She said
her family was calling her a fool for “waiting for me, etc.” Her family
pressured her to get a job because all she was doing with her time was
shopping in North Jakarta shopping malls. She landed a good job with a
European company and worked in a high rise building in downtown Jakarta. I
was conflicted, but missed her and didn’t want to lose her. I planned to
travel to Indonesia again in September 1997 and propose marriage. I did so
and of course was treated very well by her two sisters and mother (her
father had died in the late 1980s). The family seemed very solid. Two of the
three daughters had advanced degrees from Australian and American
universities. The mother managed a family-owned factory. They treated me to
many downtown expensive dinners and were very kind. We had a good time
exploring Jakarta and traveling to central Java to see Yogyakarta and the
temples at Borobudur and Prambanan.

My future wife arrived in January of 1998 and we started making plans for a
simple wedding because of the time constraints of the fiancée visa. All of a
sudden I learn that first one, and then another sister have become engaged.
My fiancée was the youngest daughter and this seems to have put pressure on
the other two sisters. The middle sister was to marry a coworker of hers at
Bank of Central Asia (from a lower status family) and the oldest sister was,
believe it or not, to marry a postal worker from Missouri whom she had met
just once before. This guy had no college education whereas the sister had
6-7 years of college. How was I to know that this sister would help
precipitate my divorce 4 years later?

The year is now 2001. Of course, the oldest sister is not getting along with
her well- meaning but mediocre husband. They have virtually nothing in
common and have a 20 year age difference. She gets him to pay for her to go
to massage school. Why not use her MBA to get a serious job? Could it be
that a serious job requires regular hours, which are quite inconvenient? One
of her first customers turns out to be a divorce attorney who gave her legal
advice in exchange for more massages. She could dump her husband, get a lot
of money and stay in the country—after only three years. Her
discontentedness spread into my wife’s life and fed on her discontentedness.
The two would spend an hour or two each day on the phone talking to each
other. My wife was preparing to quit her part time job and unknown to me at
the time—made a pact with her sister to do a double divorce. Sister
reportedly told my wife that she “could do better than me.” Now, we lived in
a 300K, 3,000 sq ft house in the suburbs and I grossed 130K last year. But,
you see, she could do better! I worked too much and was unwilling to devote
all of my free time pandering to her ever-changing whims partly because I
had to do so many chores and errands that she was unwilling/unable to do,
even though she didn’t work and had tons of free time.

To make a long story short, she planned in Sept 2001 to divorce me but I
didn’t have a clue anything was up until August of 2002. It turns out she
was having an affair with an overpaid dot-com employee from another west
coast city, whom she had met on the internet (Yahoo! personals, I think).
She would meet him in downtown (while claiming to be shopping) on weekends
when he would fly in from his city. Before finding this out, I paid for her
trip back to visit her family in Indonesia in Sept/Oct. 2002. She secretly
met this man in Singapore for a week during this visit. I couldn’t travel
with her because I had to work. (She told her family I was insensitive and
unwilling to travel with her). The purpose of her trip was also to soften
her mother up to the idea of divorce. I know her mother would not have
condoned her behavior, had she been made aware of it.

I knew something was up in August 2002. We argued constantly about trivial
matters. I couldn’t do anything right. She wanted to go to a marriage
counselor, etc. Her behavior changed drastically for no apparent reason and
with no change in my behavior. She started taking anti-anxiety medicine and
having difficulty sleeping. In hindsight it is clear that she had a guilty
conscience relating to her affair and upcoming rendezvous in Singapore.

I installed a key stroke logging device on her computer. Immediately after
returning from Asia, she asked for a divorce. When I captured her e-mail
password, a whole world opened up to me about her yearlong deception. In
that year, she had quit her job, extracted as much money from me as
possible, lost a lot of weight (from 125+ pounds to 110 pounds) by working
out obsessively at a gym, started dressing sexier (I must have forked over
one thousand bucks for Victoria’s Secret clothing), colored her hair,
obsessed over her nails and eyebrows and began earnestly looking for my
replacement. I can pinpoint the exact time she found this guy on the
internet, because he had a website that had pictures of his Porsche project
car. She called me into her office (we both had our own home offices) at the
time and asked me if “that [Porsche] was an expensive car?” I didn’t know
where this was coming from at the time. I thought she was just randomly
surfing.

That year of planning allowed her to change her physical appearance, make
herself appear more financially vulnerable by quitting her job (ensuring
entitlement to spousal maintenance) and increased the length of marriage by
one-third. Within no time she became an expert in our state’s divorce laws.
She used free consultations from local lawyers, downloaded divorce forms
from the internet, photocopied my financial records and pay stubs and hid
her money and collection of gold and jade jewelry. She tried to provoke me
into violence so that she could get me kicked out of “our” house (I paid
every single payment and over 75% of the down payment). I refused to
threaten her and I was not kicked out of the house. She knew not to lie
about that one to the police. In an ambiguous way, I let her know that
beyond a certain point, there would be no rules to limit my behavior. The
only thing that saved me from complete agony and probable bankruptcy was
having her e-mail password and using it to determine what she was doing (she
denied having an affair with the best poker face imaginable until I
literally rubbed one of her vacation photos with boyfriend under her nose.
That was the very first lie I had ever caught her in!). I also had a spare
key to a lockable safe she stored her important papers in. I photocopied the
notes she took when speaking to lawyers, numbers for new bank accounts she
established, etc. Without this intelligence advantage, I wouldn’t have been
able to make the correct decisions at key times. Being sneaky and devious
kept me from being crushed. I knew reconciliation was not an option based on
her careful planning so I didn’t even attempt it. My only regret is not
having started to snoop months earlier. I won’t make this mistake again. But
then I probably won’t ever get married again and place myself in such a
vulnerable situation.

She filed for divorce and I joined in the petition. We had paralegals do it
and probably saved a minimum of 10K in legal bills in the process. I kept
the house and my retirement, but I am at least 60K in debt right now. I had
to borrow against my retirement. A four year marriage to a woman who started
to show interest in straying (in hindsight) after about two years cost me
close to 100K when all costs are considered. It could have been 150K, except
her limited knowledge of our finances saved me. Also, I had accumulated cash
she did not know about. I had protected myself much better than most
American men, but even I was shocked at how biased the system is. Its very
structure and procedures are tailored to the interests of women. She was
able to quit her job, use the free time to get herself in shape and use the
lack of employment as justification for demanding spousal maintenance. She
was able to spend all day at home talking to lawyers while I had to be at
work, supporting her lazy ass.

In hindsight, there were a few small things that should have tipped me off
to a potential for infidelity. But they were small clues. There were no
clues to indicate that she was capable of one year of careful planning to
dump me all the while saying that she loved me and regularly having sex with
me. In fact, under any other circumstance, she would have been incapable of
coming up a complex plan to accomplish much of anything.

The bottom line is this: Women are women regardless of their ethno-cultural
background. Their fundamental psychology is uniform throughout the world.
They are extraordinarily adept at surveying the surrounding legal and
cultural landscape and figuring out just how much they can get away with.
Because the American legal and cultural regime is the most permissive in the
world (some N. European countries come close), women in America behave the
worst. I know that Asian women behave better in Asia, but this is a
reflection mostly of their cultural norms and laws, probably not their
genetic or psychological makeup. The younger a woman is, the more likely she
will absorb the American female-centered ethos. Over age 45, it’s probably
safe. Between 30 and 45, it’s risky. Under 30 and a man is rolling the dice
in bringing a women here. Women have an absolutely incredible capacity to
reinvent themselves. They’ll move to a different city, lose weight, get a
makeover and damn near become a new person. Men will believe any lame story
they relay because they trust women. Men trust women because they do not
constitute a short-term physical threat. I am now convinced that women are
far more devious than men when the truly big stakes are involved. Our male
egos usually prohibit public dissemination of stories like mine (and NiceGuy
’s—hence our pseudonyms) and this gives women a lot of cover. They can pull
a lot of shit and play like they are pure as the driven snow and
victims—when in fact they are more often the opposite—i.e., capricious
whores.

As for Asian women brought to America, it isn’t just the woman’s friends who
will pick away at her (“oh, you shouldn’t let your husband get away with
that, blah, blah, blah”). Her coworkers will tell her how their
relationships work. She can watch the Ricki Lake show and Judge Judy. My
ex-wife’s sister learned a lot about the American legal system through
watching Judge Judy, believe it or not. Foreign women can also read Cosmo
and Glamour to figure out the system. They can buy relationship books at
bookstores. They can selectively report information about her relationships
to their families and friends in order to soften them up for any future
decisions. Acceptance of female abuse of men through relationship is
omnipresent in America unless you intend to live as a hermit on a
mountaintop somewhere. Women are extremely savvy in picking this stuff up.
The farther up the socio-economic scale, the worse it gets. Smarter women
are capable of more obtuse logic in justifying their own self-deception.
They simply rationalize yet more outrageous behavior.

PICK UP SITES:
I found this site through NiceGuy’s site: http://www.fastseduction.com/
I think these guys have really hit upon core female psychology. I know
NiceGuy dismisses this stuff because he is more interested in having a
relationship with a woman than “scoring” but I think this understanding of
female psychology is necessary for both objectives. The problem is, in order
to keep a woman you have to keep her on her toes and a bit off guard. The
way our modern economies are structured, women typically have much more
leisure time than men. This means that it is very difficult to have the time
and energy necessary to keep a women off guard and from becoming bored.
Merely supporting her is not enough. She assumes support, takes it for
granted and builds her expectations from there.

THIRTYSOMETHING WOMEN:
When I first divorced, I checked out the online dating scene that “Hambone”
so well documents. There are a lot of attractive women in their early
thirties on sites like Match.com, Yahoo!, etc. I was optimistic that given
my education, job, income, house, car and a decent personality and
communication skills, I should have no trouble finding a woman. In theory, I
should be a “catch” as I keep reading magazine and newspaper articles about
how all the good men “are taken,” especially for the more educated women. As
it turns out, these women are unbelievably nasty. Most won’t even respond to
a message. I’ve tried many approaches: humor, nice, playful, intellectual,
clever, spiritual, you name it. You can spend an hour composing a really
nice message and they will just blow you off like you don’t exist. You try
to instant message them and most do not even accept the message. The few who
do agree to chat will simply end the conversation when they find something
in your profile they don’t like or you write something trivial they don’t
like. They are desperate, nasty women.

GO OVERSEAS YOUNG MAN
If I could live in Asia or Eastern Europe, I think I would. Unfortunately,
my foreign language skills are poor and my work skills are not easily
transferable overseas. I really don’t know what I will do. Obviously, I
enjoy female companionship, but the cost-to-benefit ratio that looked
questionable in my twenties now looks just awful. I wanted to live a normal,
married life, have a couple of kids, live happily ever after. Maybe retire
to a golf course community or Hawaii. With my education and income, I should
have it made—but nothing could be farther from the truth. I have to
literally “scrounge” for a date. I am a socially conservative, honest,
honorable guy who has had my chances for a normal life totally destroyed by
the gender wars, warped American laws and female avarice. I have no children
and it increasingly looks like I will not have any.

MY BROTHER
Like a number of men on this forum, my brother became so disillusioned with
American women (he calls them hyenas) that he has gone to Russia and is
engaged to marry a beautiful Russian doctor. With no background in Slavic
languages, he taught himself Russian for this purpose. This woman’s a 10 for
sure. But it’s a role of the dice for him and I have tried to explain this
to him. If a woman is ambitious enough to leave her family and friends to
move half way around the world for a better standard of living, then she’s
ambitious enough to move across an American suburb for a man who can provide
an even higher standard of living. This is the core problem with importing
women from poor counties (although I thought that I was protected from this
because my ex-wife came from a wealthy family). In addition, foreign women,
no matter how well educated, will have at least some problems integrating
into American life and this will cause additional problems. Finally, subtle
cultural clues that might alert an American man to a potential problem with
an American woman will fly below his radar with a foreign woman in many
cases. In some cases, however, character and quality will be obvious.
NiceGuy’s story about Jianglin in Taiwan is such a case.

I am honestly starting to understand the Islamic world’s treatment of their
women. If not “kept back,” I’m beginning to believe that women will behave
in such a way so as to collectively destroy society, given 4 or 5
generations. How could anything else result, when the message is
unmistakable to the most responsible men: Have children at your peril. Guys
who think like us are the foundation of a stable society. We raise better
children and keep the economy going. We obey laws and pay our taxes and
stabilize society. The fewer children we have, the more unraveled the social
fabric will become. Beyond a certain point, a complex society will collapse
from too much overhead and too few producers.

Mr_X
West Coast, North America
December 17, 2003

http://forum.dearingfilm.com//index.php?showtopic=765&hl=computer

The point being, we are not always totally in tune with what is going on
with our kids. We can never know the extent of the feelings inside any
person unless they tell us, and even if they tell us, they may not always
express the depth of it all, or we may not be hearing it as they feel it.
Especially kids.

One step at a time, used2be, just take it one step at a time. Crying is
supposed to be good for healing. I hope it resolves itself soon for you.

--
Regards Lee

~~
No one is compelled to serve great causes,
unless he feels fit for it.
Sir Winston Churchill

====

Let me make some suggestions on dealing with depression.

1) recognize that it makes sense to be productive and efficient, recognize that
constantly pondering over failures and problems is not efficient. Give
yourself a pass and excuse, forgive yourself. Then start working on short and
long-term goals which you should write down.

2) Get out, do things, go places. Recognize that simply sitting home and
watching tv willmake you more depressed.

====

> How do you forget someone? there's still certain hope inside me but to
> keep her as a friend would be a torture and a risk, so I'm about to
> cut any contact with her but I fear I could lose any chance. How do
> you know what to do? and how do you forget that person?

when you realise that you never needed nor wanted her in the first
place...when you realise that you were infatuated with the idea of her
and not actually who she was...when you realise that it was because
she could see right through you that you felt she was special when in
actuality if you learned to trust other people again that you can have
that with someone better suited for you...when you realise that its
really the memory of her that you loved the most because youre trapped
in the past...when you start liking yourself instead of letting her
define who you are...when you stop thinking about the whatifs and know
that it was just one of those things not meant to be...

Good for you... just keep in mind.... these are just 'things'.... and things
can be replaced.... don't just roll over and play dead.... but knowing when
to fight for something.... and when to just let it go... is about 90% of the
battle....

====

http://www.nomarriage.com

Why men should not marry.

All the older guys I know, guys that are 55 and older are telling me the
same story; don't do it. It just turns to crap no matter what you do.
They'd rather be independent. At best it's a tedious bore. At worst a
living hell with financial ruin thrown in for good measure. The problem
is that when you're young, you just naturally fall into this mind set
where your whole self image is based on how women regard you, and so you
spend all your money and energy trying to make yourself acceptable to
them. Then later in life the shine wears off and you finally realize
that you've wasted yourself on a bunch of crap.

Children - "the ultimate human experience"
I couldn't even begin to list all of the older folks i know from work or
through my family with kids they either don't get along with, are
disappointed in, or are so distant as to not even be a factor in each
other's lives.

I'm really skeptical about the idea of children as "the ultimate
blessing." How many friends do you have with little or no meaningful
contact or relationships with their parents?

I would wager the statistic for happy child/parent relations would be as
bad, if not worse, than the marriage numbers. Who wants to deal with TWO
bitter, unfulfilling relationships?!

Marriage is a sham for men. There is no benefit. If you are about to get
married, think it over. Don't let your dick do your thinking for you.
Don't let your punch-drunk I'm in love euphoria put you on auto-pilot.
You will wake up in a hell of a hangover staring at this woman who will
control your life.

A few years ago I went through a major depression over this until I
started talking to all the older guys I knew...and they all said the
same thing; "don't do it, it's shit. Even when it's not bad, it's shit".
You end up being closely tied to an old woman. Think about that. I can
go to Europe or the south seas tomorrow. If I was married I wouldn't
have the money and I'd have to ask HER permission. Don't get married
unless you are absolutely religiously in love with her. Like carry her
sick aged body to the toilet and wipe her ass and be happy to do it kind
of love.

What I'm saying is that human beings are nasty weak treacherous
creatures that are for the most part totally untrustworthy. Experience
is my basis for this statement, both mine and others who I know or who
have written reliable histories. If you can find a woman to be your
companion who is not treacherous, a deceitful little actress, a sly
whore or a manipulative nag or a shrieking hag, then you are among the
lucky few. Congratulations. I hope your luck continues to hold out.

Ok, assume that you will end up divorced and won't see your kids and
lose half of your assets, how different is that from being married?

Most married guys I know are working their asses off to pay bills,
rarely to get to spend time with their families, mediocre or no sex
life, and have wives that spend as much of their money as absolutely
possible.

My problem with marriage isn't a fear of divorce; it is that the whole
thing sucks divorce or not.

What security is there for men in marriage?
If I cheat on my wife, she gets half my shit.
If she cheats on me, she still gets half my shit.
Why the fuck should i get married?

Fuck it man, it's easy to get depressed about not being married when we
live in a society that constantly feeds us the image of the happy
couple. It's one big lie. The happiest person alive is someone who isn't
a prisoner dependent on another human being... We only have 80 or so
years on this rock to achieve true freedom

Very few marriages last nowadays, and even guys older than me are
telling me not to even think about it... It's a grossly overrated source
of happiness. And for the 80% that do go through divorce, it will
financially ruin you for life. Period. You can take your best 10 earning
years from say, 35 to 45 and take all the wealth you would have
accumulated and flush it down the toilet. Because it will go to her and
her lawyer. If it happens naturally and it's good then great, good luck.
But the worst thing is to force it, to make gross exertions and ignore
all sorts of red lights going off just to be hooked up and "normal". Get
some hobbies. Relax. Hang out. Enjoy. Take life as it comes.

As men, we all know that a woman's primary objective is to marry. After
years of experience I've discovered their most commonly used strategy.
here it is:

1. Girl pressures guy for marriage.

2. Guy delays.

3. Girl gradually starts destroying guy's self-esteem and eliminating
his friends.

4. Guy becomes too weak and too much of a loser to find something better
than what he has.

5. Girl starts to limit sex. In effect controlling the only good thing
in the guy's life.

6. Guy is in despair. Capitulates to marriage.

Then 5-10 years later the guy is an empty shell of his former self. Girl
is a ruthless manipulating machine. Girl divorces loser husband. Girl
takes 80% of guy's stuff because the guy is too brain dead to find a
good lawyer. Girl lives happily ever after. Guy becomes bald alcoholic
who dies of heart attack at 45 years old.

====

Everyone has been hurt, and some people just shut down for the rest of their
lives. It takes enormous courage to love again following great pain.

Sometimes, it's hard to recognize the good things that are right in front of
our faces because we're too busy looking over our shoulders.

Whether or not you believe in fate, things come into our life for a reason.


====

> I feel strongly the need for female companionship and yet
> harbor a bitterness toward an inaccurate conception of womanhood I've
> had brewing since high school.

Almost anyone can sense something different in an individual in their
presence. Maybe they haven't had enough time to figure out exactly what
it is, but they know something is different.

bad feelings towards women, homosexuals, minorities, can be felt and
exhibited by you in ways you may not realize. You should think very,
very hard what it is that bothers you about women -- because all the
women I know of all ages are looking for a nice guy.

> It doesn't help that I am naturally introverted

A women of 55 (she was a wild one) just met the nicest guy (introverted)
you could ever meet. He is only a mechanic. She is brilliant. He
keeps her car and her all tuned up. Now both of them are humming the
same tune. (LOL) but he is 5 or 10 years her junior. He is bald.
A very nice couple. You see, it is never being introverted, or ugly - I
will deal with that in a moment - it is a desire and a struggle and hard
work to find the right person, but that is only if you want.

On the issue of ugliness. I have average looks. Thankfully I have
improved with age. I had a long face and a long nose but that face
filled out over these many years and that helped. I have seen ugly and
normal people and beautiful people. Looks are only skin deep. Remember
looks are a depreciating asset. That means that everyone loses their
looks so enjoy them for the moment but charm and charisma last for
ever!

Nothing you have written here would lead me or probably anyone else to
believe you couldn't fine a very nice woman and be very happy - except
one - your possible contempt for women since high school.

When you live with someone (housemate) or are in a relationship with
someone and it ends, you only really learn about yourself. The other
person will always remain a mystery to some extent.

Important to anyone looking for a partner is who are they, what do they
want and why?

You are a guy with what interests, skills, intelligence, etc.

You want to meet a women who cares for you, likes you for who you are
and wants to possibly (first step) have a relationship with you and get
to know your good points and learn to deal with your faults. You
likewise.

Why? Well, the reason why is because you believe, unlike myself, that
a partner, spouse, woman, is the answer to your happiness or will
signficiantly contribute to your happiness and wellbeing.

I on the otherhand believe that no one on the planet except myself can
make myself happy. I can enjoy the company of others, but I don't have
to or want to live with them to do it. I can enjoy their finest hour,
and do enjoy their finest hour, but not (24/7/365 X 40 - 60 years).

But there is one significant difference between you and me. I have
life's experience times 55 years and you, I suspect, are under 35.

You need to learn to walk. Most of the people I know in a similar
situation to you have joined a social sports group. No, you don't need
to be a jock. But a social sports group does one thing that almost no
other group can do. It focus on the bigger picture, having fun and
being ones self and allows you to come out of your introverted self for
just a split second, then 2 seconds and pretty soon you are relaxed and
more extroverted because it is safe to do so. The other advantage is
that most of the people in these groups are like yourself in that they
are finding it difficut to meet somoene.

Needless to say I am slightly extroverted. I can't hellp it, but I like
introverted people because they are bright, interesting and unlike most
people, you have to crack their shell to find the good qualities. They
are, I suppose, the oyster of the human race.

Be patient. Caution: Whether it be a computer, girlfriend or car, they
joys of having one, having a new one, having a different one wears off,
is not what it is thought, dreamed, imagined to be. Don't set your
excpections high because you will, like all other aspects of life be
dissapointed. Enjoy the moment.


and moreover ugly. Anyway, I guess everyone has to manage
> it in his own way. In my case, I manage it by rejecting both humanity
> and myself as being beyond the need or chance for love and friendship.
> Anyway...

=====

<(((*> i'll never win a popularity contest. life is a popularity contest, so i'll
><(((*> never be a winner in life.

As long as you model life as a popularity contest, as long as you
model yourself as a loser at popularity contests, then you're
absolutely correct,

The trick that worked for me was to create a different model of
life, and to model myself as the kind of person who can be
successful in that model. And then to work like hell at it.

Wombn used to quote Winston Churchill in her sig file, something
about "Never give up. Never, ever give up." Good person to model
yourself upon, old Winnie.

You would probably enjoy reading his biography. Not just the WWII
part of it. You have to see the whole course of his life to
understand just how many times he needed to remake himself in
order to achieve his next success.

Very inspiring man.


=====

Move to another city..? .. Nah... not a very practical option...
The problem is... you built up some expectations in your head... and when
those expectations didn't become reality... it's knocked you for a loop. You
probably thought... 'hey, I'm a great guy.... she should find me to be a
great catch' ... But, that is usually not the case. I suggest you try and
think about someone you have absolutely no romantic interest in.... Now,
once you have that person in mind, then believe that they are deeply in love
with you... Once you have a very clear picture about how the other side
perceives the situation... I think you'll see how you can move on...

If that doesn't seem to do the trick.... then just say to yourself that she
doesn't realize what she's missing.... and then go look for someone who
would consider your love and attention as a gift.

"Thomas Anderson" wrote in message
news:80455e19.0403190647.4329455c@posting.google.com...
> i was in love with a wonderful girl, i talked
> to her & told her about my love for her
> she said that she want me to be only a friend
> i know that i must respect that, but it is very hard
> i don't know how to be just her friend while i'm still
> love her.
> how do i deal with this, i tried to be away from her & but
> it is a bit hard, we work in the same company & we see each
> other everyday
> what should i do

=====

>
> I would simply tell her that your feelings for her of such a deep and profound
> nature that you cannot be merely "her friend" and avoid further contact with
> her, while always being polite. I surmise that you are young. Go and live and
> find another love.
>
> Cat

Good advice but I would leave out the "deep and profound" part. Just
tell her that being "just" friends with her would mean you would have to
pretend that you do not have feelings for her.

Be civil and polite to her afterwards and try not to hope that she will
change her mind. She most probably won't, so try any move on as soon as
possible.

Last bit of advice: try not to get romantically involved with people you
work with. It always gets complicated regardless of whether or not
things work out.

Good luck.

=====

Don't be her friend. Women just keep male friends around to impress other
women with how many men they have to choose from. The best revenge is to refuse
to be friends with her at all...now that will make her annoyed and possibly
even more into you sexually.

=====

been there done that... and it doesnt work
trying to be "just friends" with someone u have deep feelings for and want,,
isnt an option.

u end up hurting more and more...

what can u do?

stay away from her.. let her live her own life.. and u have to get over her
and move on

and if that means changing jobs.. so be it.

good luck

=====

>It's easy to change "just friends" into much, much more.

Yes it is, by refusing to be friends with women at all. "Friends" bullshit
just gives women an unlimited number of men to place within her power orbit.
She uses these men like pawns to threaten her current boyfriend. It's EGO,
women collect male friends for ego and control. Also, she has 10 male friends
to prove to other women how much she is desired by men.....

Take a stand! NO FRIENDS!!!


=====

Well, I have very strong opinions about this. First of all, the women and men
being "friends" thing is mostly bullshit. The guy is just too cowardly to
directly flirt with the girl so he conceals it behind this "friend" mask and
waits for the day for her to fall madly in love with him. Of course the real
stupidity of this is that if she truly thought he was good-looking, she would
have FORCED the situation into a romantic relationship immediately. Women don't
tolerate hot male "friends" unless they already have a good-looking boyfriend
or husband and usually the women use these male "friends" for reasons that you
young guys probably don't want to deal with..

Basically, and I've seen this NUMEROUS times...a woman collects male
"friends" for the purpose of putting the THREAT of another man in her life
right into the boyfriend's face. The male "friends" are her symbolic pawns to
notify the boyfriend, "If you don't treat me good, look at all of the other men
lined up who want me!!!"

Next, the other reason that a woman has a lot of male "friends" is to show
off to the other women how desired she is..."Look at all these men who want
me!!! I'm much sexier than you!!!"

I'm serious, women are sly and tactical, they don't have any person in their
life by accident, it's all a well evolved strategy.

I remember when my sister was having problems in her marriage, suddenly a
male "friend" appeared out of nowhere and she got emotionally close to him but
as soon as her husband started serving her again, BINGO, the friend
disappeared...she had no more use for him. He existed in her life only to pose
a threat to her husband and if the husband was giving her everything she
wanted, the "friend" was no longer necessary..

Want another example? A girl is mad at her boyfriend so she sleeps with a
male "friend" to get back at him.... In other words, these "friends" are kept
around to always have SOMEONE to use for your next potential DRAMA. It's much
easier and considered "classier" for a girl to sleep with a male "friend" than
some stranger at a bar, the male "friend" who of course she knows has wanted
her sexually for 5 years..women are not stupid, they know damn well that men
only become "friends" with them because they are pretty and that he's holding
out hope for sex one day......the male "friend" is finally given the sex he's
been waiting for...of course he was just a pawn used to hurt the
boyfriend......

See what I'm getting at here?? This is why when women aren't sexually
interested in a man they tell him, "Let's just be friends" because they know
that someday that guy will serve her somehow as a potential threat to her
current boyfriend, etc....this is why if a woman tells you, "Let's just be
friends" and you say, "No thanks", this is the worst punishment you can dish
out to a female!!! To not allow her to use you within her power orbit is the
ultimate FUCK OFF! Because most women love to collect a pile of these males to
USE for power plays and other silly immature antics...

The other thing that the young people do and this is the 16-22 age group is
this "Oh we are just friends" but then they intentionally place themselves in
party situations with alcohol and drugs and suddenly they are having sex with
this "friend"...they aren't fooling anyone....no one gets in those situations
unless they want to lose control but women like to blame other elements for
their uninhibited behavior to avoid taking responsibility for their actions..

"Oh I didn't mean to be alone in that football player's hotel room at 1 A.M.
in the morning, it was an accident and I was only going to have one drink."
yeah, yeah, yeah, lady, you wanted to make yourself vulnerable and you wanted
something dangerous to happen and then after the sex you woke up the next
morning feeling cheap and used and you charged him with rape........it's this
kind of game-playing that undermines REAL RAPE.

My father told me a story about a girl lecturing him about "using women" 5
minutes after she had just had sex with him. He says that it was like she had
turned into a psychopath right after the sex was over....she had changed into
this completely different person.

=====

// posted by Me @ 3:40 PM (0) comments

Here's your advice, though it may not be what you were expecting. Stop
trying to forget him and stop trying to not be in love with him. If
someone has had that strong of an effect on your life, you're not going
to just forget them.
As for your feelings, are you truly happy with Brad? I don't see your
feelings for this person ever going completely away, but it could be
that they are more prominent for you now because of something missing in
your current relationship.

In any case, IME, you will be able to deal with your feelings much more
easily if you accept them as part of your life. If you are constantly
fighting them, that can only make it worse. It would also help to keep
reminding yourself of your feelings that he was not right for you.

Hi, i know that it is hard to forget about someone that you really loved
but i will tell you this, you will never forget about that person. In
time you will look back at your relationship and be able to pick out the
things that you learned and that have made you a better person and the
things that didn't work out too well and know that that is something to
avoid doing in the future. Keep yourself busy doing things that you
like to do, like a hpbby or a sport. Hang in there. You may hurt right
now, but enjoy life being by yourself. Someone once told me that you
can't be happy in a relationship untill you are happy by yourself.
Hopefully this will help you a little. Hang in there. You sound like a
really nice guy, and I am positive you will make it!

=====

To tell you the truth, you never really forget someone you really loved,
they will always be a pleasant memory. As for the pain, it does go away,
with time.

Try to keep yourself busy, either with work or with friends. This will
help you from dwelling on the pain, and it will give you something else
to think about for a while. The pain will still be there, but it won't
be the only thing you think of, and it will dissapate with time.

As for trying to be strong because you are a man, well a good cry never
hurt anybody, and it sure helps deal with the pain. I've had a few "feel
sorry for myself" days in my time, and it does help put things into
perspective.

I feel for you. Just take it one day at a time.

=====

The best way to forget someone you like is to
concentrate on your duty such as work, study, house
keeping, etc.
The worst thing is doing nothing but just looking at
the person's picture, mails, etc.
Throw those thing away or never look at them.

You may often remember the person while you work, but
let it as it is. It is impossible not to think about
the person by your intention.

You can remember the person, but try to concentrate on
work.

You will have some achievement and gain confidence in
yourself. And you may realize that the person is no
more important to you...

=====

I have a different perspective on this one.

Assuming one likes someone - a lot. There must be a reason as to why one
wants to, or needs to, forget that person. Once the reason has been
identified, it should be possible to move along that line of thought and
unearth a reason to NOT like the person. Of course, insurmountable
geographic distances could be a reason - but the fact that the person did
not accompany one should be (acc. to me) sufficient reason to question the
person's commitment to one. I can come up with similar reasons (mostly
appearing to be manufactured - but all following the same pattern - find
some thing(s) that one does not like about the person and amplify on it.

Once one is convinced that the there ARE reasons to not like the person, it
should be just a matter of time before one forgets about the person.

Please note that time is the master healer. ANYTHING and EVERYTHING is
healed by time .. one way or another.

=====

The best way to forget "someone u like" is to start
thinking and liking "someone else". This is the best
method as now u will be inclined to think of the new
person.
We find difficult to forget someone because we because
we went to forget him or her. The more one try not to
remember someone the more he remembers. It has been
often said that when we went to remember something
perfectly we must try to forget that and see that u
will never forget that incident.
Same thing is iver here . thus we should make efforts
to distract our attentuion from that . that is only
possible when wwe find something better or equal to
earlier one..

=====

Hello,
You are right no body ever forgets who one likes...it is just that one just
tries not to remember them often.
i.e: keep them in the back of the memory so that they clash less often with
the current ones.

=====

> Continuing the discussion on Pulkit's topic,
> I would love to know as to how one can forget a person
> one likes. I would appreciate any answer other than
> "to like someone else!"
>

read "man's search for meaning, an introduction to logotherapy" the
autobiography of viktor e frankl.

he was a doctor of psychiatry in germany, and was sent to cocentration
camps along with his family members where all perished except himself.
among all the physical hardships and mental degradation, he discovered
what he called "the last freedom of human beings" that his torturers
can't take away. that is, your reaction to what is being done to you by
others. you have the freedom to choose not to feel humiliated, insulted
by what is being done to your body, freedom to choose your own reaction
to the stimulus.

man is different from animals in the aspects that animals are
genetically programmed to eat to survive and to have sex to create
offsprings.

whereas man has been given the gifts of
1. self-awareness: to isolate himself from his bodily experiences and
become aware of the situation as it is.
2. discretion: to assess whether what is happening is good or bad.
3. imagination: to find other ways in which things could be done, to
remove the bad part and to enhance the good part of the situation.
4. willpower: to implement what he has decided, in spite of hardships.

this gave rise to the concept of proactivity, in which we have the
freedom to choose our response to stimulus, using these four gifts,
instead of just reacting to the stimulus.

in logotherapy, we attribute a higher message in the situation that
takes the pain away and provides motives for a new beginning.

an incident similar to the situation you asked for, will clarify.

a person was almost mad with psychological pain about the recent death
of his wife whom he loved very very much.

dr frankl asked him, do you love you wife very much so as to, given the
option, you would have died in her place.

the man immediately said yes.

dr frankl asked him, did your wife loved you much that she would have
choosen to die in your place, if the situation had been like that.

the man thought for a moment and said, yes.

dr frankl suggested that if that man has died in the place of her wife,
he would have left her wife living the same life of agony that he
himself has been facing. he further said that by dying, the wife had
fulfilled her desire of dying in place of her husband, had the situation
been so, and thus he has to live to respect the wish of her wife and to
live it in a happy manner, the way his wife would have wanted him to
live after she is gone.

it was not to be his life style, it was to be the projection of his life
style thru the eyes of his late wife.

the man understood it and chose a vocation in which he could further the
likings and beliefs of his wife. the agony was gone.

it is cryptic, but that is the way philosophies are. it is also known as
a paradigm shift.

any discussion or more queries about the concept are welcome.

======

mickey wrote:


> franco@grex wrote:
>

> > Did anyone get any advice on usenet (this group or others) that really changed
> > (improved) their life? I don't mean just some words of support and comfort
> > (though those are quite important in a support group) but what I mean is an
> > advice in the form of someone imparting some new knowledge that you have been
> > unmindful to thus far. If I had to recall the most important one I got was not
> > on this ng, but on an anxiety group where I learned about scientifically proven
> > anxiolytic and anti-depressive effects of aerobic exercise.
> >

>
> Yes. The primary and most useful advise I got from here was to put a
> higher value on people's behaviour over their words. If I could think
> of one of the most useful post it would be an Eric Pepke one which you
> can google with "author:pepke everything you know is wrong".
>
> -M


Book Quote:

Speedy was back on Cloud Nine again. "I have always loved intelligence, I would
hate to see someone as bright as you burn himself out by trying to do too much, too
fast. You have the potential to possibly exceed my accomplishments if you learn how
to keep yourself from overloading." Speedy had already passed the stratosphere by
now. "I can only offer you the advice of a tired old man who's seen too much and
knows far more than he should. It's up to you to decide if you want to take it. You
don't have to agree with me; it's your life and you are free to live it any way you
choose. Think about what I said and sleep on it overnight."
Speedy said he would. "I'd like to also give you one more piece of advice, if I
may." Speedy nodded. "Do not trust those who demand you ignore what you think to be
right. You must learn to use your fabulous mind and learn to think for yourself.
Don't always believe what you read or what your teachers or your textbooks tell you.
Sometimes they are wrong or have intentional biases or outright lies."
I was shocked to hear a well known educator and writer say such a thing. I knew
this but I know most educators won't admit it. I was starting to be amazed by the
great mind of this man; I had to admit to myself that maybe I had misjudged Dr.
Sign. "Learn to look for the reason why people do things. Do not judge people by
what they say, write or claim. Judge them by their actions; does what they say or
write agree with what they are doing? If not, attempt to discover the reason...."

- George Green quoting Dr Hugo Sign in Paul Robinson's "In The Matter of: The
Gatekeeper: The Gate Contracts"

=====

1) Men use romance to get sex.
2) Women use sex to get romance.
3) Men who are too supplicating and "NICE" are akin to women who are too
loose and "EASY." (both give in too easily to the other's demands and
lack self-respect])

====

> Cuddling with a girl at a movie.
>
> The worst feeling in the world?
>
> Sitting behind a couple cuddling at a movie.
>
> I want to die.
>

You went to the movies alone?

I had similar problems until the day I decided that I would just take a
chance and be myself around girls. Well, my life has transformed, I'm
engaged and I have many girls and women that I have befriended without any
effort, it just happens if you keep a positive outlook, radiate confidence
and smile.

Best part about it is that looks are irrelevant in this, girls (yes hot ones
too) are less interested in looks then personality.

Approach and take a chance and just be yourself.


====

> Cuddling with a girl at a movie.

Cuddling is nice, not sure about at a movie. After a while your arm
gets pins and needles; also, she might take it as a sign you're not
really interested in the film, when perhaps you are. Cuddling in bed
is better.

For me the nicest feeling in the world is heading home from work and
seeing three Argentinian parrots fly across the road. Or lying in the
sun on the terrace of a Sunday afternoon.

> The worst feeling in the world?
>
> Sitting behind a couple cuddling at a movie.

Oh, I don't mind that as long as they don't chatter or disturb my
enjoyment of the film.

For me, the worst feeling in the world is being suddenly hit with a
dose of the trots in the middle of the street halfway to work with no
public loo within grin-and-bear-it distance.

> I want to die.

Unoriginal. /Everyone/ wants to die. (Except Catholics, of course, who
have reason to fear death.)

====

I think that the love from one woman could cancel out the hate from all
other women. That's how powerful love is. If one women loved me, I
wouldn't give a shit about what any other woman thought of me.


===

>I now know why people choose to leave
> this world; the pain in the heart is so
> much worse than physical pain

Let's ask those Cancer patients about that. How about all them people in
in the Middle East getting blown up. I'm sure they would agree. You
obviously aren't putting things in context

> and it
> could be healed if the other person
> would be willing to, but when she is only
> in your dreams, there is no slution to it.

You love someone who doesn't love you.
It happens and it hurts, it it didn't there would be no poetry, no love
songs.

Wait a minute here are people using their pain productively

>I wish I could see the end of the tunnel

Have you tried LOOKING?

> and I wish I did not think with the heart
> so much,

Ah your heart doesn't actually think you know?

>but can't avoid it; can't
> shortcircuit that part of my feelings.

What you need is a good does of caster oil. Everytime you think about it
take a does of Caster Oil. That'll cure it.


>I ask God for her 'attention' but then I
>think, there's so many people with so
>much more problems and God does not
> answer them, why should he answer to
> me?

Maybe he did answer you. Maybe he is saying NO!

>This pain is very difficult to deal with and
> the sad thing is that I chose to like her
> and pursue her and pretty much hurt
> Myself.

Then STOP THAT. If I hit you with a hammer would you just say DAH A HEE
or would you smack it out of my hand. The choice IS yours

>Now I can admit that I don't really want
> to live this life, that I want to be
> nowhere and rest...

You are not saying you want to kill yourself, you are saying that you
don't want to live like this. This is not the same thing. Remember that.

>maybe as an spirit I could hover over her
> and have the chance just to see her and
> be by her side and have my dream
> come true,

Supposing when you die that's it. You just die. No spirt, no
heaven....Well then you've accomplished NOTHING. I would bet on
something with surer odds

>but my family would be very sad and that
> would not be a good situation for them;
> if I did not have anybody and I would be
> alone,

Well there's a bit of genius logic. And if I were rich I'd have money.
What's your point.

>I'd probably do it and it would be so nice
> to rest and not worry about all this; for
> now, I just hope, hope, and hope and
> inside me I don't think anything will
> happen.

Have you ever tried to worry about someone other than yourself. Take a
trip to homeless shelter or a hospital and then ask yourself...Sure it
hurts but let's get some perspective here. Will you do that? No. Why?
Cause you WANT to FEEL bad.

Stop that.

>They say things happen for a reason and
> maybe that is true, but meanwhile my
> heart hurts and my pain consumes me...

Who says that? Stupid people say that. Once you get along in life you
will come to one shocking revalation. Sometimes things "JUST" happen.
For no reason other than "because."

>that's been my story; was engaged once
> to a beautiful woman, dated a couple of
> others but the person I'm really attracted
> to right now, does not give any positive
> signs and I'm so scared to know the
> truth and to lose her forever by rushing
> tellng stuff soon.

Not knowing something isn't gonna make it so. If you love someone you
tell them. If they don't they tell you. Then you move on.

Let me tell you something about women. All women know about 5 minutes
after they meet you if they will ever have sex with you. After one hour
they know if you will ever be a candidate for a relationship.
Within 2 hours they either have the baby's names picked out or they know
"you'll due" until something better comes along.

Don't Be a chicken

If You Love Someone You Let Them Know
There ain't a lot of time before it will snow
.....Sheena Easton

====

If you are depressed, then you are in no shape to make decisions about
your worth, intelligence, ability, looks. Depression will lie to you
about everything.

====


You are at a loss because you are trying to make sense of something that has
no sense. Stop trying to understand her behaviors and why she does what she
does. Start trying to learn about her illness. Try to think intellectually
rather than emotionally, as hard as that will be.
You will never understand what she does. You can only understand what you
do in response. Give up trying to understand. It is impossible, because
there is no logic to it. Did you know there is a very high rate of suicide
among bi-polars? Your best response is education.

====

It's important to be able to be happy being with youself. If you can't,
the notion that "someone else will make me happy" is a fallacy. People
are more attractive to others if they have happiness within vs. a dependency.

====


I'm just a happy kinda person.

Once you find someone that enhances the happiness in your life you'll want a
relationship, until you meet such a person enjoy yourself as you are.


====

'Love is blind.' should be written on a t-shirt or something. Ain't that
the truth?

====